How André Hueston Mack Is Making Wine Less Intimidating—and More Fun

TRANSCRIPT

Kirk Bachmann: Hi everyone, my name is Kirk Bachmann, and welcome back to The Ultimate Dish. Today, we’re honored to have André Hueston Mack, a sommelier, winemaker, and designer. Despite having a successful career with Citicorp Investment Services, Mack decided to leave his desk job and pursue his passion for wine.

While working as a sommelier in San Antonio, Mack discovered the joys of introducing guests to the little-known vineyards that first attracted him to the business and “the instant gratification of a guest’s reaction.” Love that!

While still in Texas, Mack was awarded the prestigious title of Best Young Sommelier in America by the highly regarded Chaine des Rotisseurs. This recognition led to a job as a sommelier at Thomas Keller’s world-renowned French Laundry in Yountville, California. He then went on to accept the position of Head Sommelier at Keller’s equally famed Per Se in New York City, where he managed a 1500-selection award-winning wine list and consulted regularly with Chef Keller on menu and pairing development.

Winemaking had always been a dream of his, and it came to fruition in 2007 when he founded Maison Noir Wines. Based on the success of his wine labels, in 2011 Mack established Get Fraiche Cru, a boutique graphic design firm, for which he serves as creative director.

Mack has been featured in major publications such as Food and Wine, Wine & Spirits Magazine, New York Times, The Huffington Post, and the Wall Street Journal. He was honored in 2007 with The Network Journal’s 40-Under-Forty Achievement Award.

Get ready for an inspiring conversation – get thirsty! – about pivoting careers, what it takes to become a somm, and so much more.

And there he is. I’m exhausted! Let me catch my breath.

André Hueston Mack: Oh my God!

Kirk Bachmann: That’s you, buddy! That’s you!

André Hueston Mack: Whew! What a walk down memory lane!

Kirk Bachmann: Wow!

André Hueston Mack: I don’t reflect a lot, but it’s always kind of great to listen to every now and then to figure out how far you’ve come.

Kirk Bachmann: Oh, I love that. Yeah. To keep you grounded and all of that.

Let’s set the tone. You’re in Brooklyn. You’re in New York. Love, love, love the city. I believe I saw on one of your latest IG [Instagram] videos that you plan on doing a lot of travel this summer. You love Boulder. I know it has a special place in your heart.

André Hueston Mack: It does.

Talking to a Table of Strangers

Kirk Bachmann: We’ll talk about that in a minute. Fill us in on what’s going on with travel this summer.

André Hueston Mack: Yeah. I travel quite a bit. When I embarked on this journey to create a wine company after leaving restaurants, what I knew how to do and what I was confident in was that I used to be a waiter. It was easy to walk up to a table of strangers and talk to them and converse with them. Same thing [with] people who came to the restaurant; you’re outgoing. You talk. I felt like my strong suit was “Hey, I want to go tell my story.” I traveled everywhere around the world that anybody would listen.

I’m not a good salesperson because I never asked for the order.

Kirk Bachmann: You’re just chatting it up!

André Hueston Mack: I think that’s what the sales rep is there for. The whole idea is to tell the story and to talk to people. That was always fun.

In 2020, I decided, “You know what? I want to be part of the restaurant landscape of New York.” That’s what I always dreamed about when I moved here twenty years ago in ‘04. I just wanted to open a little wine bar. When I wasn’t anywhere in the world traveling, you might be able to find me at this small little watering hole in my neighborhood that was four hundred square feet.

I opened that in January of 2020. Quickly, Covid hit, and then I doubled down. I opened several other restaurants in New York City on that street and got away from traveling to talk about wine. Now I’m back on the road.

Basically, I traveled for a decade almost every single week to anywhere in the world. I went to the airport.

Bobby Stuckey and Working a Restaurant

Kirk Bachmann: You know what I love about your opening, André, you mentioned being a server, being a waiter. You mentioned guests. You mentioned hospitality. I immediately started thinking about our mutual friend, Bobby Stuckey.

André Hueston Mack: Stuckey!

Kirk Bachmann: I thought about Will and his beautiful book, “Unreasonable Hospitality.” I’ll shoot a note over to Bobby a little bit later. I just love those stories of connection and family and friendship and such. You said some beautiful things before we got started today about having a mentor, having a friend, having somebody that shows you the way. Yeah.

André Hueston Mack: It’s great. What’s interesting, too, and what I like to tell a lot of young people: it isn’t that one day I went to Bobby Stuckey and asked him to be my mentor. It was just from being around him. And on that list, it’s so funny because now I have to think about it and say, Well, he kind of is a mentor from afar, not like he was always open to ask questions. I got to the French Laundry. I had a mentor. When Bobby moved on to start Frasca, Paul Roberts came in, and I was part of Paul Roberts’ crew. Both great people.

The thing about Bobby is he kind of stayed true to what it was. There’s lots of sommeliers in our generation who became entrepreneurial and moved on to do other things. Obviously, he’s entrepreneurial by having his own restaurant. They have their own wine – Scarpetta – but he still works the floor. There’s some dignity and honor in that. When you see that, it’s pretty amazing.

I give a lot of credit to Bobby. When I started Maison Noir wines, he gave me my first official wine dinner. It was at Frasca on a Monday night. I was really grateful for that. That really set the tone for the next ten or twenty years on how I conducted these dinners, how I conducted myself. I don’t know.

I try to tell young people, a mentor you can have from afar. I think a lot of people think a mentor is “Hey, I’m going to sit you down and today I’m going to tell you everything I know.” It doesn’t really work that way.

They broke the mold with Bobby. I’m proud to call him a friend. I cherish the moments that I’m around him. That part is great and really fun.

I think that’s a product of working at a place like the French Laundry. You learned a lot of life lessons there. We were all young, in that sense. We were trying to figure out how to be adults, how to be men in that sense. What I take away from my experience working there wasn’t just food and wine. It was how to carry yourself, what integrity meant. A lot of those lessons were met and practiced within the four walls of the restaurant. A lot of us, I think, found ourselves bringing them into our everyday lives and living off of those principles, at least to guide us. That’s what really made it a really great experience to work there.

Kirk Bachmann: I love that. And I love the word “dignity.”

And I love this story. This is an ode to Bobby as well. I was at an event in New York years ago. It was beautiful because Anthony Bourdain was there, beautiful man, and Daniel Boulud and Eric Ripert. They were up on stage. Someone asked such an innocent question. The question was, “Chefs, who cooks in your restaurant when you’re not there?”

Eric Ripert took that one, and he was chuckling. It was great because he was like, “Well, I guess the same people cook in the restaurant when I’m not there that do when I am there.”

André Hueston Mack: When I am there.

Kirk Bachmann: It was just a great response. And what I love about Bobby is he’s got a lot going on – Tavernetta in Vail now, Denver. Two locations in Denver, and Frasca, and Pizzeria Alberico – but more times than not, André, you’re right. He’s working the floor.

André Hueston Mack: He’s there.

Kirk Bachmann: He’s there pre-meal, and he’s there as the last plate gets taken off the table. That’s hospitality.

André Hueston Mack: Yeah, and that’s real. It pays off in spades to his employees and the people who work around him.

Finding a Common Language

Kirk Bachmann: I have to say, if anyone hasn’t seen – and you met Noelle a little bit earlier there. She’s a major fan of the Bon Appetit World of Wine series on YouTube. Can I just say, I was pumping myself up earlier today, running the school. I’m like, “I’m going to put André on for a little bit.” I listened right before the show; I listened to the Piedmont episode. I just got to tell you, and I think you know this: Italian wine can be complicated. Any wine can be complicated, but the way you talked about plum pie, and “This is an everyday wine. This is easy drinking.” How you talked about other wines and where the acidity comes from. You related it to apple pie.

That’s how people learn today. You’re flipping the classroom. I love that concept. You’re helping people imagine what they’re drinking. Where does that come from? Were you a teacher at the French Laundry as well, or did that come with time?

André Hueston Mack: I don’t think that I felt like a teacher there. That thing of “Talk about what you know.” I think sometimes you get there, and you get overwhelmed. Then you start to think, “Well, do I know that? I don’t know that.” I do think that I had to figure out a style of how to talk about wine even in a place like that, a style that made it relatable to everybody else.”

I think that was hard because that was twenty years ago. The idea of talking about a wine in a way that people could understand and meeting them where they’re at was a big thing for me because that’s how I learn. To talk about a wine and to use descriptors that people haven’t heard of. “Yeah, this is banger, right here.” The fact is, they knew what that meant in the sense of music, right? But it had never been applied to wine.

It was really funny because moving to New York in ‘04, you have a lot of New York employees that work there. It’s the epicenter of a lot of things, but a lot of them were taken aback by the language which I used. Often, how I talked about it was “The way I describe wine here to you guys is a way for you to bring it in, to accept it, to understand it. We don’t want to use that language with the guests. You have to figure out your own word, but I want to explain it to you.” And the idea for me was to get you excited about the wine, to get the staff excited about the wine, learn something about the wine and use that kind of language.

I remember, I’d use something like “banger,” and I remember a chef asked another chef, “Is he allowed to use that word?” A lot of those things made wine fun in that way, to be able to describe them.

So, I would say that I was a teacher there because as sommeliers, it’s our job to teach every day, not to talk down to. When we say “teach,” I think that comes off like this, but we like to use the word “educate.” It’s our job to educate daily but not in a forceful way. To reinforce some things. That’s what’s amazing to me because that’s what I learned to do: to educate the table, educate our staff. Who knows?

The pre-shift meeting. I was telling somebody the other day, it’s pretty powerful. I decided that I wanted to be better at the pre-shift meeting because I was nervous. I was doing the wine portion of it. I think outside of death, public speaking is Number Two [fear]. To boot, this is all a staff that works at the best restaurant in the world. I’m just showing up there. It’s this thing of really trying to figure out my style. It was fun. It was fun to do, and by making myself do the pre-shift meeting and being dedicated to it, it was a way to attack my fear. It felt like that was a life skill. I didn’t know what I was going to be able to do with it, but I think it paid off in the end in the sense of being a little more comfortable talking about, not just wine, but other things.

Kirk Bachmann: You don’t hear pre-shift much anymore. Not every restaurant does it. What we do at the school here [is] we simply call it a line-up. It’s less about trying to find out what students are doing wrong and more about how prepared they are for the day. Uniform looks good. Apron looks good. Have you done your prep work? And such.

But I love the idea. The pre-shift is, “Boy, if you don’t get that right, and then you go on stage in ten minutes.” That’s a problem, right.

André Hueston Mack: It is. And too, it’s nervous energy. You know what you know. What you think you do, and then presenting it in a way. But also, building confidence with the staff. You have to be confident in the words and the way that you speak to them about wine so that they can actually carry that over to the table.

We had maybe three or four sommeliers per shift. Not all sommeliers made it to the table, and we really wanted to enable our captains and our staff to be able to at least talk about wine. To have that initial conversation and carry their own. If they got a little too out of hand or a little too deep, they could always call on us, and we could come over to the table. I love going to the table and doing tableside, but it was our job to prepare the staff to know about wine.

Kirk Bachmann: I’ve got to tell you, super quick story about the French Laundry. I was there with my wife. That menu still hangs in our family room at home. It’s spectacular. People still come into the house. “Was that the price? Was that like per person?”

We were in Napa for a while years and years ago. I met some people from Haas Vineyards, and then I met some people from Frog’s Leap. Here I am at the French Laundry, and – can I just tell you? – I don’t remember who the sommelier was or the wine steward was that night, but he couldn’t have been more patient and more loving with me. My wife is mortified because we’re so excited to be here. Jack Shepherd and his wife are at the next table.

André Hueston Mack: Who’s who?

From Citicorp to Frasier to Wine

Kirk Bachmann: It’s like, “We’re at the French Laundry!” I ask for Frog’s Leap. “You got any Frog’s Leap on the menu?” And he was so polite.

“Oh, Chef Keller has wine grown for him.” So on and so forth. Not only did I do that once, I did it twice. “Are you sure you don’t have any Frog’s Leap back there?” Oh my gosh!

André, we’ll get to your incredible design work and wine label in just a bit, but first, for our students, for our listeners, we have to rewind a little bit. I want to start with what I think might be one of the most inspiring stories for a young – not just culinary student – just a young person. Tuning in. You left a successful career behind to follow your dream, your gut, to get into wine. You were working at Citicorp. Maybe you’re talking about tannins and terroir there, but probably not. What made you take that leap into the wine world? Is there that one single moment where [you thought] “This is it! This is what I’m going to do?”

André Hueston Mack: All of the above. It’s funny because I don’t know if I had a successful career in finance because I wasn’t there that long. I was successful long enough to get a license, a Series 7 and a Series 63, but it was that attempt of moving on to something else. When you told people that you were waiting tables, it wasn’t a career; it was just a job. Everybody was going on to bigger and better things. Me, too. I thought, “Oh, I’ll go to finance.”

When I went there, I just spent a lot of time at a desk, behind a desk, on a phone. You talk to people, but it wasn’t the same. When you work in a restaurant in hospitality, you know the structure. You show up to this place. You know how it’s supposed to go. There’s all different types of people. Stuff happens, and that made it exciting in a way. Being on your feet. I didn’t really enjoy working in finance.

The stars aligned in a way where they merged with Travelers Group and they were offering severance. I had never heard of that before. Or I could reapply to work at Salomon Smith Barney, and I took that opportunity to say, “I want to probably walk away from this.”

It was funny. I asked a woman several times, “Explain to me what severance is again?” I wasn’t sure. “Because I’ve got to go home and tell my mama at some point.” I didn’t live there. But tell my mama I didn’t get fired. I didn’t quit.

Kirk Bachmann: They gave me this money.

André Hueston Mack: This is the big payoff. You worked so hard, and now you were going to have this career. Having severance allowed me to have a little bit of time and not rush to do anything. I wasn’t really sure what I was going to do.

I spent a lot of time watching – I don’t know why it came on – but I was watching old episodes of “Frasier.” During the weekdays around three or four, they used to play old episodes back-to-back. They maybe played three or four episodes of the show. I thought it was corny. I wasn’t really into it, but I think I couldn’t find the remote or something like that, so I never changed the channel. Slowly I got into it, but what I was attracted to. It was these two pompous brothers who were caricatures of themselves, and it was the camaraderie that they had around alcohol, specifically wine, that I noticed. That’s what piqued my interest. The first time I ever heard of Gewurztraminer was on that show.

Kirk Bachmann: Isn’t that something?

André Hueston Mack: Sancerre The reason why I knew ‘61 Bordeaux was a great vintage was from that show. That show gave me the courage to walk into a wine shop for the first time in my life. I’ve said this many times. The greatest foil to pretension is humor. I felt somehow this show armed me with some comedic anecdotes. Also, you have that defense mechanism where if you make fun of yourself first, then nobody else picks on you.

That show was the gateway to give me the courage to get me to go into a wine shop. That’s when I realized that wine people are very generous. They love to share not only wine but their knowledge. All of a sudden, they love to talk. You’re in the shop, and everybody’s talking about wine. I learned early on that they were accommodating. I’d walk into the store, “Hey, I’ve got twelve dollars today. What do you got for me? What are you excited about?”

It was this gradual thing that happened. I didn’t think [about] what I do now currently in life; I didn’t think that when I was watching “Frasier” or I walked into a wine store. It was just that I wanted to have wine in my life.

What eventually happens, you have to go back to work. I went to go back to work at a restaurant, and it was at that moment when I caught what we call in the industry “the wine bug.”

Kirk Bachmann: What was that first wine job like? Since you brought up, Frasier Crane: oftentimes he looked like us. Didn’t he have a talk show?

André Hueston Mack: Yeah. He was a radio host.

Kirk Bachmann: Radio host.

André Hueston Mack: Radio show. He had a show and he was a psychiatrist.

Kirk Bachmann: Psychiatrist, and he gave advice. It’s funny. I don’t know that I binge watched it. Everybody did. It was probably one of the most popular shows. Now that you say that, you’re right! There was a lot of chatter about wine.

André Hueston Mack: Yeah, they were blind tasting on that [show]. They had a wine club they were involved in, the Cork Master. There were so many elements of it. They drank sherry. It was these things where it was like, “Oh, what are these things? I want to explore those things.” That show gave me the opportunity to explore those things. The next level – I worked as a waiter in restaurants, so I felt comfortable doing that. It was the wine part that was new for me. That was it. I think every waking moment, I spent thinking about wine or tasting wine. I’d get off of work at ten-thirty or eleven, and from eleven until four in the morning, I would study.

And that’s been my thing. I wouldn’t call it a secret weapon, but I’ve never been a person that needed a lot of sleep. Maybe four or five hours. Then, of course, it’s those days when you need twelve or you lay down. But I think for me it was something that I was excited about, so I didn’t want to go to sleep. So I’d stay up, and finally when I went to sleep, I couldn’t wait to get up. I don’t know. It was an exciting time. Just learning about this whole new world was pretty amazing for me.

Kirk Bachmann: That is amazing, and that’s what life should really be about. I’m totally dumping that into Chat GPT after we’re done chatting today. I wonder if that’s even a thing or if that was by design. I’ve got to know now, incorporating the wine and all of that into the series.

André Hueston Mack: Totally. I think one of the producers was an English guy. He was an oenophile, so he was the person that was writing all the wine stuff in it from what I gather.

An Insatiable Thirst for Wine Knowledge

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah, that’s fascinating.

So what was your first job like when you were really like, “I’m in the wine business?”

André Hueston Mack: When I really got into wine, I was a waiter at a place called The Palm steakhouse. It opened in San Antonio on the River Walk. It was that experience there. It was the first place that we trained for a whole week, or something like that. What was interesting about it was at the last hour or two hours of training for two nights, we tasted about sixty percent of the wines on the wine list. The wine list was only about fifty or sixty selections, but I had never done that before.

That was the magical moment for me because it was the first time I had three glasses of wine in front of me. We had Riesling, Sauvignon Blanc and Chardonnay. The idea that you could pick them up and smell them and vacillate between both of them, I felt really helped me really distinguish the differences between the two. I have to say, it was Sauvignon Blanc that really opened my eyes. Wow! This smells so different. Not that it was a famous one or anything like that; it was just a contrast to the other ones. It was just something that spoke to me.

I think that was probably one of the moments at the beginning of planting the seed to say, “Oh wow! I kind of want to do this for a living.” And also simultaneously learning, “Oh, there’s a job that you can do this?” I was just a waiter then. “Oh, it’s called a sommelier? What is that?” That was the beginning of it. I have to say maybe three months later – eighteen months later I was working at the French Laundry.

Kirk Bachmann: Oh my goodness!

André Hueston Mack: After that training session – I want to say six weeks later – I probably knew more about wine than anyone at the restaurant. It was at that moment where my peers and other waiters really trusted me and said, “Hey, can you go talk to my table about wine? I’ll watch your table.” I was doing the wine chat, but I was a waiter. There was no wine person in that particular restaurant. From there, I got my first sommelier job at a steak house that was right next door.

Kirk Bachmann: Aren’t you the best teacher in the world when you’re learning yourself? You were learning. You were staying up until four in the morning. You were getting educated, and you couldn’t wait to tell people.

André Hueston Mack: Oh, it was the best.

Kirk Bachmann: I have to ask: Sauvignon Blanc, I can think of some memories. Like in “Ratatouille” it took him back. Do you find that if you had a Sauvignon Blanc tomorrow in a beautiful restaurant with some friends and family, would it take you back to that day?

André Hueston Mack: It can. It has happened. I’m not a really reflective person, but it has happened at times where you go right back to that spot. I just think about being young and somewhat naive, gung-ho rushing into things.

Kirk Bachmann: Fearless.

André Hueston Mack: And the curiosity. Somehow, it’s like Wow! You reflect on that part, and then you come to present day, and that’s the really hard thing to accept. How far you have come, and the things that you have forgotten.

Kirk Bachmann: You mentioned – and I love this – instant gratification. Introducing guests to lesser-known vineyards. But introducing guests to anything! Can you talk about that energy and how does that hook you?

Making Their Eyes Light Up

André Hueston Mack: I think it’s all of it. That was the rush. What I missed about the restaurant when I went to go work in finance wasn’t the wine because I didn’t really work in any restaurants that had wine. It was the idea of talking to someone, making recommendations, leading someone down a path, and then bringing them something. You see their eyes light up. You see them [say,] “Wow, this is so great! Thank you.” That was the instant gratification of turning somebody on to something. That felt good to me, and it seemed like it felt good to the guest. I don’t think I really got that working in finance in that way.

It was personal in a way, but very quick. We probably spent maybe thirty minutes with these people. They might have [eaten] and they might have been sitting at the table for an hour, but the actual interaction. That was something that drew me in. That was something that was adrenaline filled. Wow! You got this rush.

Also, I have to say, that actually fueled the quest for knowledge. That thing, “I need to know more. I need to know more. This is amazing!” Not just for the little stories, but just being comfortable enough to command not only the language but the table. When you spoke..

Kirk Bachmann: The room.

André Hueston Mack: People perked up. You could answer those questions. It was fun. It still is.

A Sommelier as Tour Guide

Kirk Bachmann: Wine is interesting. It’s intimidating. It’s celebratory. I can remember years and years and years ago when I was running a dining room in Portland, Oregon in a beautiful hotel. We had a law firm in, and they were ordering some beautiful wines. One of the partners got up and started pontificating about everything he knew about this particular wine, the history of this wine, and how you might be getting some hints of eucalyptus.

After the event, I thanked him for [his] story and [his] knowledge about the wine. He goes, “Oh, I made all that up. These guys don’t know what they’re drinking.” I was like, “Okay, you lied to me.” Why do people have to do that? Farmers, people that grow those beautiful wines, you don’t have to make stories up like that. Just tell the truth.

André Hueston Mack: Totally. Also, I felt like in that situation, sometimes it feels like it’s a defense mechanism.

Kirk Bachmann: Of what they don’t know.

André Hueston Mack: Or that they thought they knew. A personal relationship. I’ve had people say that to me all the time, they say what they know, and they realize that I might know more than them. “I don’t really know what I was talking about. I was kind of making that up.” But people do, in a way, make stuff up. That’s just how it’s been set up. People are afraid to ask.

But also, it’s a weird system where there’s no tasting notes for a cocktail. Now you’ve got tasting notes for a wine, and it talks about things that are not actually physically in the wine. It feels confusing, in a way, and it’s set up by design to be not inclusive. You have to know to know. Some of that matters, and some of it doesn’t. It’s just a weird thing.

People are willing to accept being an expert in their taste in a lot of other things, but in wine not so much. Why do you give your power away of what you like? Either you like a cheeseburger or you don’t. Or you like a hamburger with pickles or don’t. You don’t need anybody to tell anybody to tell you whether or not you like Coke, Diet Coke, or Diet Pepsi. I feel like because of the pretense surrounding it, people want to give themselves up to it. They want to bow down.

I always preach to people, “You’re an expert in your own taste. The salespeople at the store, the clerks, the sommeliers at the restaurants, they are more akin to a tour guide. They put together the list. They know the list. They know the nooks and crannies in it. Based on a conversation with you, whether they have the exact same wine that you’re looking for, stylistically, they should be able to point you in the right direction to something that you would normally drink.” I think more people – guests – should be thinking about them more as tour guides than as arbiters of their own taste.

Kirk Bachmann: I’m interested. The tour guide concept. For listeners wondering what it takes to become a sommelier beyond the certifications. Talk a little bit, André, about the mindset and the curiosity – great word – that someone has to cultivate and have within to make that happen.

André Hueston Mack: Curiosity I think is a big thing, wanting to know why. As a sommelier, people bring you, quote-unquote “a finished product.” They’ve put the wine in front of you. They let you taste it. From that, your mind is constantly circling back around, evaluating the wine, and saying, “Why does this wine taste this way? Is it something that they’re doing in the vineyard? Is it something that they’re doing in the winery?”

It’s funny because people talk a lot about passion. I definitely believe in passion, but I think what leads you and fuels that passion is curiosity. As a sommelier, you’re kind of required to know a whole lot about a whole lot, a whole industry. You have to be knowledgeable. You have to have this information stored, but you also have to be able to disseminate that information in a way that is not intimidating. And also – I’m not going to say coddle – but fits into the framework of hospitality within that restaurant.

Kirk Bachmann: Well said. Well said.

Your story in wine, maybe it’s traditional, maybe it’s not. It’s yours. It’s your story. You’ve been able to articulate exactly when that moment happened. Did your background in design and music, culture influence what you do, or was it the opposite? Did your love and knowledge of wine influence other things you did in life?

André Hueston Mack: I think it’s the other way. I tell people, I was a kid that grew up on hip hop and punk rock, in that era. That was me. That shaped who I was. Then, when I got into wine, I discovered something else that I loved. I think, for me in life, I’ve been constantly trying to put those things that I love and enjoy together. That was a way to be able to make it work.

Also, it influenced the way that I talked about wine. Culturally and how I spoke about wine and used pop culture references and things was from my upbringing. That made wine relatable, using analogies that seemed to fit and explain things in a much simpler way. [It] was a way I tried to look for the everyday to explain not only to our staff in the way they speak about wines for them to understand it. I think how I grew up, all that, culturally, the things that I’m in really shaped the way that I talk about wine.

The French Laundry Way

Kirk Bachmann: What I love about that sort of approach, those comments, is that it’s almost an analogy for any field. Everything you’ve just explained could be applied to conversations around becoming an HVAC expert or a carpenter or a chef or an auto mechanic. Or a farmer. Or a plumber. I love that.

Now we’re going to embarrass you a little bit. You earned the title of Best Young Sommelier in America. Then you joined Thomas Keller’s team at the French Laundry, and then later at Per Se in New York City. Thomas Keller. Wow! He spoke at our graduation virtually during the pandemic, which was so huge of him.

What was that experience like? I imagine as a human being it was a pretty cool experience to get to know Thomas Keller, but as a sommelier where you brought your knowledge, he brought his knowledge, and together you paired food with wine.

André Hueston Mack: I guess what I learned the most there – I think in most restaurants of that caliber, they had a set wine pairing that they changed daily. What made the French Laundry different and Thomas Keller different was the approach that he wanted to take within his restaurant. You couldn’t have a set wine pairing that every table got because his ideology and his thought process said, “Well, not everybody likes the same thing.”

So what was really cool about it and what I really had to learn was that when we had a conversation – we always wanted to have a conversation with the guest about wine. We wanted to find out their likes and dislikes. If someone said, “I only drink white wine,” now it was my job and mission to figure out all the different white wines to be able to pair with their meal. That made the wine pairing unique to each individual, which was fun and interesting. It kept it fresh because we always had to be on our toes.

The whole idea of tasting food and wine back then with Thomas, that didn’t really exist when I was there. I don’t think that was wrong, but you really had to double down on our theories. At some point, we got to taste some of the things. IT was a different beast in that way. What I learned the most was about food and wine pairing.

Also, what I learned a lot about was just food in general. The idea of “On this course, we’re talking about foie gras. Which wine do we want to use? Oh, is it torchon, which is very clean? We would want to use something that was a little bit leaner, not as cloying. It’s a cold preparation of a foie. Maybe a little Gruner, or a little Riesling that had some sharp acidity to it, but nothing like Alsace.”

Then, if we thought about a different preparation for foie gras later in the meal, something like caramelized – seared foie gras.

Kirk Bachmann: Seared, yeah.

André Hueston Mack: You think about something like that, and that’s what I learned. You’re starting to talk about the process. You’re starting to talk about Maillard. The crust on the outside, the caramelization of that, something that’s a little richer and thicker. There, you might like to think about something like Sauternes, something that’s a little richer in style.

You really start to think about the preparation of food critically. That really determined what direction that you could go in with the wine. With a set wine pairing, I felt like sometimes you had these slots that you just filled. Here, we were teaching the sommeliers in pre-shift how to fish. When you tell them that you’re not teaching them how to fish when you just have a set wine pairing. You’re talking about, “Hey, for the lobster courses today with the set of this and that, we’re thinking of a Rome white wine.” We didn’t name producers. We named a few producers so the sommeliers and the captains had a little wiggle room on the styles of wine that they wanted. We’d give them a style of wine, but they could look at the producers and go that route. That was amazing. That’s what I took away from there.

There were a lot of things that I took away from there, but that was one involving wine and food. It was an experience and a process which, I think, a lot of restaurants don’t do.

Kirk Bachmann: This is absolutely fascinating to me. I’m sensing this freedom of cognitive flexibility, if you will. Maybe sometimes they get it wrong, maybe sometimes they get it right, but this ability to adjust as necessary. I never would have thought [about it.] I would have thought a pre-fixed, static menu is very transactional. It’s got to be this way.

What’s the difference? I can remember standing in the French Laundry’s kitchen and looking up and seeing Per Se closing on the TV.

André Hueston Mack: Absolutely. Yeah.

Kirk Bachmann: Again, ladies and gentleman, not scripted! We’re really putting André in the hot seat right here. How would you describe the difference between – I’ve read a lot of stuff. I have my own thoughts – the difference between French Laundry and Per Se?

André Hueston Mack: I think how I try to explain it in a way that was Country Mouse, City Mouse.

Kirk Bachmann: Oh, ho!

André Hueston Mack: I think maybe that, but also I remember: French Laundry was like a Land Rover, sports utility vehicle. It’s rugged somehow. Per Se was maybe a G-Wagen, kind of the same thing, but in that sense a little bit more polished. Let me articulate that.

Kirk Bachmann: No, I’m feeling you. I think about New York.

André Hueston Mack: Energy.

Kirk Bachmann: New York Restaurant, which has to be a lot of stuff. A lot of high ceilings. Boom, boom, boom. French Laundry, you might fly in three days prior, get to the spa, go to Bouchon for breakfast and ease into the grand finale. Is that pretty accurate to you? That’s the way we felt.

André Hueston Mack: Totally. It feels like “when in Rome..” you’re not at work, per se. You’re relaxed, in a way. You’re there to take everything in. The idea of having a very slow dinner, taking it all in.

Kirk Bachmann: The experience.

André Hueston Mack: You really take it in. Where in New York, you can have the same experience and people are there longer, but it’s just a snappier feel. The wines were different. I felt like in the time that I was there, there were a lot of people drinking a lot of Bordeaux and Burgundy. Bordeaux was huge and Burgundy was huge. We sold those things at the French Laundry, a lot of them, expensive ones, too, but what we found is that we sold a lot of California wine. You’re in California country. That’s why I say when in Rome… You’re in California wine country, and that’s what we championed and that’s what we sold. Then the wine selection was different. It was still rooted in California at Per Se, but it had a lot larger Burgundy and Bordeaux list.

Kirk Bachmann: I have to tell you a funny little story. We have a student here. A couple weeks ago I was talking to him. He’s getting close to the end of the program.

I said, “Have you been thinking about your externship?”

He said, “Yeah. I’m thinking of going to the French Laundry.”

I’m like, “I’m sorry.” I’m like, “Have you talked to anyone? How can I help?”

He says, “Well, my uncle lives out there.”

I’m like, “Oh, your uncle lives out there.”

He says, “Yeah, my uncle’s Peter Jacobsen.”

“Oh, like Peter Jacobsen that grows vegetables for the French Laundry?” This kid was so unassuming.

“Yeah, my uncle is Peter Jacobsen.”

André Hueston Mack: And you’re like, “What?!”

Life Skills

Kirk Bachmann: We have to talk about the Bon Appetit series, World of Wine. What was that like stepping into that role? You’re a host. Did you always want to do something on camera? You’re really, really good on camera?

André Hueston Mack: I guess yes and no. This is where the pre-shift kicks back in. When I told you that I was afraid of speaking and all those things, it became a life skill. I use this analogy. I have four boys, and at the time when their peers were taking soccer, we were less in soccer. We were like, “Hey, why don’t you learn how to swim?”

Kirk Bachmann: What’s the age group?

André Hueston Mack: Sixteen, fourteen, nine, and six.

Kirk Bachmann: Wow.

André Hueston Mack: So we have the varsity and the J.V. What was interesting to me in a lot of ways was [that] swimming is a life skill. Not only can you save your own, you can save somebody else. In soccer, there’s lots of great things from that as well. I figure that I’m in a restaurant and I’m working, but if I focused on speaking at this pre-shift, which could be considered public speaking, that would be a life skill that I could take with me anywhere, be applied anywhere. Then you couple that with ten years on the road almost every single week doing wine dinners, talking, storytelling, those things. It felt pretty good. Then it just all evolved.

I think a lot of people approach me about wine, but it was in that era when they didn’t think it would work on television. That was always a weird thing. Also, big brands just approach me out of the blue. I have a Microsoft commercial. I had a Cadillac commercial. I had a John Walker commercial. Those all kind of led up to being on camera. I have shot sizzle reels with different production companies. When I thought about Hollywood, it really feels like “Hurry up and wait.”

During Covid, Bon Appetit reached out. I was a little apprehensive; I don’t know why, but I was. They asked me, and they had different ideas. At the moment, I said, if I approach this the way I approach a lot of other things in my life, then I can probably be good at this. That was it. The key moment was [when] I said something like, “Will you let me use emojis to rate the wines?” They said, “Sure,” and that was it.

I decided, “This is cool. Let’s do it.” I wasn’t really sure if I was good or not. I wasn’t really sure if it would resonate with the audience. I don’t know who the audience was because it was the Bon Appetit people. At best, I thought novices would latch onto it. To my surprise, there’s a lot of industry people who look at it and have learned from it. There are a lot of people who are novice who don’t drink who have watched it. I think that has made it a lot more meaningful to me moving forward.

At the beginning, I was like, “I’m not sure what happens. I’m in a dark room. Three people on the other side and nobody laughs at my jokes.” Then, as the videos started coming out and the world started to interact with them and as people started to approach me on the street or on the plane, having conversations with them, I realized that it wasn’t just novice; there were industry people who wanted to do well in this industry that were watching very closely. That felt good. It gave it more meaning.

It’s funny because in my mind I approached those videos as if I’m doing the pre-shift meeting for the staff at the restaurant.

Kirk Bachmann: I love that analogy. The videos feel good, too. Honestly, you should be incredibly proud. They’re humble. They’re genuine. The word approachable comes to mind. Wine is not often approachable.

André Hueston Mack: Absolutely.

Bargain Wines

Kirk Bachmann: People are a little awkward about it. You’re much more earnest about your journey to the camera. When we decided to do the podcast, I drew the shortest straw. Here we are! Face for radio, that’s me!

We have to talk about Trader Joe’s episodes. Do bargain bottles of wine get a bad rap?

André Hueston Mack: Well, yeah! Rightfully so. I think people make good wine and people make bad wine. You can find it on all levels. Overall, I think a lot of people do think that they get bad raps. I like to tell people, in wine generally what you hope for or wish for is that you get what you pay for. In that sense. You don’t want to feel like you overpaid for something. I think generally bargain wines fall into that category. What made these places different is because of their buying power and the fact that they have the power to access great wine and offer it at a lower cost.

Kirk Bachmann: That’s a difference.

André Hueston Mack: Absolutely. That, for me, was exciting. As a sommelier, every day I think you get up and you’re energetic because it’s your job. What you want to seek out are wines that drink above their pay grade. That’s what you want to do. You want to find wines that, “Okay, this price point ratio seems right. This is overpriced.” But what you really want to find and be excited about are those wines that feel like a value to you.

I felt like shooting the Costco and the Trader Joe’s videos set out to answer questions by a larger population that wasn’t really into wine but went there for value. That’s what made those videos fun. Also, in a way, I could approach it and just show up on set. The idea that I didn’t want to know too much about it. I just wanted to go in honestly and say, “Oh, okay. What is this? How does this taste? This is great.” I hope people really got some value out of it.

Wine in the Moment

Kirk Bachmann: Clearly, to be really, really honest, as a sommelier or a wine maker or an educator, not everyone can do this. A palate is a very unique thing. When you’re, André, tasting wines or spirits, what do you look for? Again, no right or wrong answer. Do you specifically have a favorite varietal, or do you go with the seasons? Do you go with the food, the event?

André Hueston Mack: I think it’s all of the above. That’s what makes it special when you’re into wine. You have your new favorites, the new thing that you’re into and you’re diving deeper in. You have the old classics that are great. You have, “Oh, I’m going to an oyster riot or a beach party. I want to bring those wines.”

It’s funny because where it says, “Oh, hey, do you have a favorite kid?” The right answer is “no,” but a lot of parents say – in the moment? Yeah. In the moment, you’re connecting with one a little bit more, or you’re working on something together. You’re excited to see that happen.

To me, pinot noir was always great. All the great wine lists that I had a hand in contributing to restaurants, they bookend on red and white Burgundy. I think that was definitely a love for me. I think most sommeliers, the gateway is Riesling. Riesling always has felt great to me, but I’ve been on a kick for quite a few years of drinking old American wine. I feel like it represents a lot of the great values that exist in wine.

How Music Feels

Kirk Bachmann: I was just going to ask favorite region, but I like that.

I almost forgot about this. We have a lot of thought leaders on the show that tend to be in our industry. Oftentimes, they are behind the stove. There’s this common thread: music, oftentimes motorcycles. How about you? Music, motorcycles, both?

André Hueston Mack: Music, cycling, riding.

Kirk Bachmann: Cycling.

André Hueston Mack: Those are a lot of those things.

Kirk Bachmann: Top three bands of all time. Go.

André Hueston Mack: You can’t spring it on me like that!

Kirk Bachmann: I love it!

André Hueston Mack: Now is not the right answer. Genesis is up there for me.

Kirk Bachmann: Really.

André Hueston Mack: Yeah, I’m a big Genesis fan.

Kirk Bachmann: You probably can’t see behind me. I’ve got these tiny little albums. I’ve got U2. I’ve got Dave Matthews. Fleetwood Mac. Bob Seger. I’m a Detroit rocker fan.

André Hueston Mack: I see.

Kirk Bachmann: I’ve got the Eagles and I’ve got Springsteen up there.

André Hueston Mack: Yeah. Springsteen is probably one of them when he was with Eighth Street. It’s so funny because it’s really hard for me to put a finger on something like that because that was a really big part of my life growing up. My father bought music every Tuesday. It was something that we listened to and really focused on R&B. The other twenty percent was all across the board.

If I was really saying it, Hall & Oates.

Kirk Bachmann: Oh, I got a chill. I got a chill. Right?

André Hueston Mack: I think my kids have Pavlovian [responses] because every time we eat dinner together, I would always play some Hall & Oates. It stretches across quite a few genres. That quest for new music and new sound still continues to this day. That I like. The idea of wine and music together and how do you do that? It’s interesting. It’s not like pairing food. It’s more like pairing a vibe and what you feel, and what those wines can make you feel like.

I’ve stepped back and looked out of the box to talk about wine as an experience. I think that’s how younger generations talk about music these days. They don’t talk about melodic sounds or lyrically. Especially when we’re talking about hip hop, they talk a lot about vibe. “This is what it makes me feel like.” Which is great. I don’t think it takes anything away from the artists, but how we judge music and how it was good and what it meant – to our generation – is different from what it means now.

For me, I try to embrace that and meet people where they are at and talk about wine in the way that it’s a vibe and how it can make you feel. That was a part of using emojis. It sounds a lot more complicated than it is.

Kirk Bachmann: That’s the right answer. That’s the right answer.

You know, if you do make it out to Colorado anytime soon, we’ll stop in Denver. Right next to Bobby’s Tavernetta – and you probably know about it – Sunday Vinyl.

André Hueston Mack: I had dinner there last year.

Kirk Bachmann: He’s spinning music with the food and wine. I absolutely love it.

André Hueston Mack: You’re starting to see that, too. It’s pretty remarkable in that way. You use music in a restaurant to set the atmosphere and the vibe, so to speak. You’re starting to see a lot of these listening bars, but then wine bars that really focus on vinyl, which is cool.

The Story of the Name

Kirk Bachmann: I love it. I love it. I have a fourteen year old at home. I wrote down a bunch of these. I need to be able to communicate with them especially when it comes to music.

Your label, Maison Noir Wines, I love this section of the show because I’m a University of Oregon grad. Unique, distinctive grapes. I think initially [they were] created for some of New York’s restaurants. I’d love to know where the name came from, and I’d love to know what the relationships with winemakers in Oregon are. Why is that special to you? I just love this.

André Hueston Mack: Originally, the name was called Mouton Noir Wines. We changed the name after a six or seven legal battle with Mouton-Rothschild. Mouton Noir is interesting because the name was given to me. It was a nickname that was given to me when I moved to New York. Or maybe was given to me and I accepted in a way. It’s interesting.

I guess the story goes that I joined the staff to pre-shift meeting. I was talking about highlighting a zinfandel. It was Biale, and it was called Black Chicken. The whole concept was that during Prohibition, people would come out to the winery and they’d say, “Hey, I’ll take some eggs. I’ll take this. And do you have a couple of those black chickens.” Which was illegal wine.

I’m telling the story. We’re having a laugh. After the pre-shift meeting, before the guests come in, the staff is gathered around. They were talking, and they said, “We should call you Black Chicken.” Trying to give me a nickname.

I was like, “You absolutely will not call me Black Chicken.”

Then we started talking. Then somebody said, “Well, what about Black Sheep?”

I said, “Well, if we say it in French.” So Mouton Noir.

It’s two-fold in a way. For me, I realized that I didn’t do things the way that everybody else did them within the four walls of the restaurant. Think about how I described wine. It was banging. The terms that I used, how I talked about wine was different and made me a black sheep in that regard. Also, what I have to say is that I literally was the black sheep because there are not a lot of people that look like me that do what I do in this industry. For me, I felt like, “Well, I can’t hide that. If you see me, you just see me.”

It was just something that I decided that I would embrace. The whole idea of being a black sheep, being an outcast, being a misfit, to me, if you can embrace what makes you different, ultimately it will set you apart from everybody else and propel you to success if you can harness that. That’s really the thing. It was like a calling card for everybody who felt like they didn’t fit it. No, that was your superpower.

I think there is a quote that says something like, “They all laugh at me because I’m different, and I laugh at them because they’re all the same.” I think when you embrace being a misfit or a black sheep, it’s empowering because it gives you creative license to do things differently.

Now, kids say “on brand,” but it fits into that thing. I encourage people to be different and to do things differently. That was kind of it.

When I got the nickname, I thought it was funny. We laughed. I said, “I’m going to name my company that.” Then I created the logo. It was my screensaver at work. While decanting ungodly priceless bottles of wine, I would joke and talk about things I wanted to make and different names. It was a running joke.

Then, when it came time to leave, it became a real thing. That was something really fun for me.

Also, it was very simple. All the labels are black and white. It was very stark. Labels are [typically] very colorful. I remember as a kid, I’m part of a military family. We would shop once a month at the commissary. It was a huge shop. You would go with your mom, and you would go down every single aisle. You might even have two carts. I remember going down each aisle, and every aisle you turned down was this mosaic of colors. Then you would go to this one aisle and turn, and you would stop in your tracks because everything was all white. It was called the generic aisle. It was the generic aisle, and everything was packaged in white. It had black Helvetica font on it. A white bag of chips would say,“Potato Chips” on it. It was before grocery stores got smart and had their own brands that they marketed. They would have these things. It would be all white, and it would just say “soda” on it. Or all white and would say “Beer” on it. It was something about the starkness of that and how it fit in – it stood out. Behind the back bar, it would stand out. It looks generic in a way, but that’s by default. It also fits into that thing of being a Plain Jane.

That was fun for me. I didn’t have a graphic design background. I couldn’t afford a designer. I designed them. That was a creative release for me. I learned so much. I don’t know. Everybody’s like, “Your branding is great.” I was like, “I don’t know. I just did what felt right.” There was no book that I went by. I just had these ideas and put them out.

And I had the names. To put my name on it and say “André Mack Chateau” or “Chateau André Mack” or “André Mack Estates,” to me, that felt pompous. Especially if I was starting from scratch. It would be different if I had a family legacy that I came from that did this. I always felt like by naming the wines something that resonated with other people, that made them interested. By calling a wine “Love Drunk,” that felt great to me. People were curious. They were more curious by a wine called “Love Drunk” than they ever would have been by “Chateau Mack” is how I felt.

Networking and the Next Passion

Kirk Bachmann: I love this conversation around superpowers and being on-brand. Somewhat related, you’ve hosted seminars at Aspen, Newport Mansion’s Wine and Food Festivals. For students that listen and get inspired by you and what you’ve done, I’m curious how important these sort of events are for someone’s inspiration and to be able to network. Do you have to be at these events?

André Hueston Mack: I don’t think you have to be at those events, but I felt like for me I felt like they were tests. You were testing your skills. How do you know what you know? How do you know that you’re good at it?

Kirk Bachmann: And how do people react?

André Hueston Mack: You’ve done millions of wine dinners and those kind of things. For some people, they can be validating in a way.

I will say at the beginning, I was gung-ho and did a lot of them. Also, what I realized as I furthered in my career is they generally happened on the weekend. I felt like I’d much rather be home with my family than doing them. It just becomes a party. You’re not really selling wine. You are building a brand, and opportunities can come from the visibility. I think we should all do them. I think for a lot of young, aspiring people, these are some of the goals they have, to be a part of those events. I think if that is a goal for you, then you should actively participate or pursue.

Kirk Bachmann: That’s good advice.

André Hueston Mack: Because accomplishing a goal is accomplishing a goal. It’s not maybe the outcome of that goal, but it’s the feeling that you get from accomplishing that goal that helps you go out there and get up and go back out there and do it again.

Kirk Bachmann: Part of the journey.

What’s something, André, that you’re dreaming about right now that’s outside of the wine glass?

André Hueston Mack: I think for me maybe photography. Some of the ancillary things around running a company. You have to take pictures of bottles and these things in the world that we live in. Photography seems good. I have lots of different interests. Is that what you’re asking me?

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah, photography’s cool. I thought you were going to say being on the Ultimate Dish, but…

André Hueston Mack: Oh, well that too.

Kirk Bachmann: That too!

André Hueston Mack: That’s a given. I’m already here. That went away the day you asked me to participate.

Kirk Bachmann: Students that are listening and stuff, I love that you throw out so many different things. Nothing’s unapproachable. Photography sort of makes sense. It’s in the bucket. Why not?

André Hueston Mack: I have lots of different [interests,] like interior design. All of those different types of things. Sometimes I feel like I actively went out of the wine industry to look for inspiration because I wanted to do something different. When I looked at some people to work with, I wanted to work with people who had never worked in the wine industry to get a fresh perspective in that way. I think working with different people is fun. I’m excited and interested in where wine goes, and also where my own personal journey takes me.

Kirk Bachmann: And you’ve got four kids.

André Hueston Mack: I do. I do. One’s getting ready to go to college. It’s great.

Kirk Bachmann: Amazing.

André Hueston Mack: Yeah, it’s really fun.

André Hueston Mack’s Ultimate Dish

Kirk Bachmann: I love it. I don’t know – Noelle’s pinging me. I had no idea that we have gone way over our time. This has been so unbelievably fun and captivating and riveting.

I can’t let you go, though, André, until I ask: the name of the show is the Ultimate Dish. I’ve got to ask you, what is the ultimate dish? It could be wine. It could be a dream. It could be a memory. Or it could be a dish.

André Hueston Mack: I had a dish. The ultimate dish, for me, is sweetbreads over soft scrambled eggs with black truffles.

Kirk Bachmann: Oh my goodness!

André Hueston Mack: We call that the Mack Daddy. There we go.

Kirk Bachmann: Oh my gosh! Well, we’ve never had that one, but I can feel it. “Ratatouille.” I’m going with that.

André Hueston Mack: There you go.

Kirk Bachmann: Beautiful. Hey, this has been so much fun. Welcome anytime. We have a studio in downtown Chicago where we film all of our content. If we’re ever in Chicago together, I’d love to do something cool live with you.

André Hueston Mack: Yeah. Well, let’s make it meaningful. Let’s not say, “If we’re ever there together.” Let’s plan that. I’m into that. That would be great. Let me know.

Kirk Bachmann: Well said. Hey, thanks for being with us. Best of luck, always.

André Hueston Mack: Alright. Thank you so much. I had a really great time. Really cool. Thank you.

Kirk Bachmann: Thank you, André.

Thank you for listening to the Ultimate Dish podcast, brought to you by Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts. Visit escoffier.edu/podcast to find any materials mentioned during the podcast, including notes, links and other resources. And if you can, please leave us a rating on Apple or Spotify, and subscribe to support our show. This helps us reach more aspiring individuals ready to take the next step toward their dream careers. Thanks for listening.