From Resume to Interview: Hospitality Hiring Experts Share Career-Boosting Tips

TRANSCRIPT

Kirk Bachmann: Hello everyone, my name is Kirk Bachmann, and welcome back to The Ultimate Dish. Today, we’re honored to have two incredible guests—Brian Blum and Evan Kaplan from Gecko Hospitality, an esteemed partner of Escoffier. Both Brian and Evan are powerhouse recruiters in the hospitality industry, helping connect top-tier talent with cutting-edge opportunities.

Brian brings over 20 years of leadership experience in restaurant operations and professional staffing. As a franchisee and recruiter for Gecko Hospitality, he has an impressive track record of placing exceptional talent in the restaurant sector. From his time as a director at Applebee’s, where he drove annual sales to $19 million, to his leadership roles at Ragazzi’s and Houlihan’s, Brian holds a deep understanding of what it takes [to make] a business thrive. Beyond his professional success, he is a dedicated community leader, serving with the Rotary Club and spearheading initiatives like Memory Café to support Alzheimer’s patients and their caregivers.

Evan Kaplan is an award-winning hospitality recruiter with a lifelong passion for the industry. A sommelier and former food and beverage professional, Evan has spent several years specializing in executive search and talent acquisition for hotels, resorts, private clubs, and more. Recognized as a three-time Partner of the Year and Brand Ambassador Award winner, Evan thrives on building meaningful relationships and making the perfect match between candidates and organizations. His extensive industry knowledge, relentless drive, and passion for hospitality have made him one of the most successful recruiters in the field.

So get ready for an insightful conversation about hospitality careers, leadership, and the future of talent acquisition in this ever-evolving industry.

And there they are! Good morning. How are you, gentleman?

Evan Kaplan: We’re doing great. Thank you.

Kirk Bachmann: Quite an introduction there. It’s very rare that I get the opportunity to interview two powerful guests on the show, so I’m super, super thrilled to have both of you here. I think, Brian, you’re calling in from D.C., and Evan, you’re right down the road in the frigid tundra that we call Colorado.

Evan Kaplan: The cold state of Colorado. The unique thing is that both of us cover the same markets; we both cover New England.

Kirk Bachmann: Oh, you do!? Interesting.

Just to get us going, Evan, what is going on with this weather? I mean, we’re never happy, right? My family has a business in the mountains. They’re loving the snow. We have a hotel up there. But I was over on the Western Slope last week, and it was like stop and go, stop and go. They closed I-70. They closed 70 again yesterday. You’d think that we’d done this a couple of times.

Evan Kaplan: You would think. Usually down in the Denver metro, things get a little more sensitive for people. They describe what snowflakes look like. Western Slope is just another day, but it has been pretty chilly out here, for sure.

Kirk Bachmann: Brian, what’s happening in the D.C. area?

Brian Blum: Well, weather-wise, it’s been frigid as well. This morning I was walking my dog, and it was in the teens. Wind gusts yesterday were up to 40 miles an hour. It’s been pretty cold. It’s supposed to start snowing tomorrow night.

Running and Racing

Kirk Bachmann: Everything is changing. Everything’s changing.

Since we’re focused on you right now. I love your background. We’ll dive into all of the things we’re going to talk about today, but I’m going embarrass you a little bit or celebrate you a little bit. I see a ribbon right over your right shoulder. I see the Boston Marathon on the one side, and I think it’s a velodrome over there on the right?

Brian Blum: Yeah. That’s a cycling event. I’m a cycler. I ran the Boston Marathon. I’ve run a few marathons. I don’t keep all my ribbons, just certain ones that mean something to me. I’ve got my Boston Marathon medal, my Marine Corps Marathon medal. My son’s in the Marines as a captain in the Marine Corps. Over my shoulder is a pink ribbon that’s the Cherry Blossom Half Marathon that I did last spring with my niece.

Kirk Bachmann: That’s great.

Brian Blum: There are quite a few other ones that I have up there. I think my very first marathon was the Walt Disney Marathon, so I have that one up there.

Kirk Bachmann: That’s a good one.

Brian Blum: That’s a good medal.

Put in the Hours

Kirk Bachmann: I always have to tell this story. Years ago I ran the Peach Tree Road Race. It was just a 10K in Atlanta. It was like 115 degrees by 6:30 a.m. There I go. I thought I was in pretty good shape. Off I ran. Then this guy runs by me with a full tray of Krispy Kreme donuts, literally in full costume. I’m already out of breath, and this guy is passing donuts out to the crowd.

Congratulations.

Brian, we talked about it briefly in the intro, and then we’ll pop over to Evan: I’m curious how you got into the industry. Was it through the casual dining segment? I’d love to hear your thoughts on where the casual dining segment was and where it’s going. Either of you, actually. We talked briefly about Applebee’s, so I’d love to hear more.

Brian Blum: The last restaurant company I worked for was an Applebee’s franchise group. I ran seven restaurants as an area director. Before that, I was a training general manager and general manager. A lot of people think, “Oh, I want to be that multi-unit manager. I want to move my career up.” Eventually, you get to the point where you don’t love it any more. I think I didn’t love being an area director. I was working at least 100 hours a week. It was like being an owner, essentially. You’re working seven days a week. You don’t see your family. It was just time to make a change.

One of our recruiters, Joan Boscawen [Koelbel] who’s the only franchisee who’s been with Gecko longer than I have, she called me up. I talked to her a lot. She would supply me with talent, but I would also talk to her. She mentioned that Robert was going to start this franchising model for the staffing industry. I interviewed a lot of managers at the time, so I thought it might be a natural progression, and I’d get to see my family more. That’s sort of how I got into recruiting, through Joan and going up to, at the time, Chicago to visit with Robert. And became a franchisee.

Kirk Bachmann: One of the things that I always try to point out when we’re talking to thought leaders on the show is that you get to a certain place in your life. It’s just like running a marathon. You don’t just decide, “Hey, maybe I’ll run the Boston next year.” There’s a lot of work. You mention the hours.

What’s the quick advice to someone – because we get a lot of questions, both from our online students who are a little older, and even from our ground students or residential students who are a little younger. Many like the idea of this empire below them. “I’m going to learn how to cook and all that, but I’m going to do the management stuff because I’d like to do a little bit more.” What do you say from an advice perspective to someone when you already know what you’ve been through?

Brian Blum: I think you have to determine early on what’s your passion. To the culinary students, I would say, “Are you really passionate about food and being creative and being able to create your own menu items and share those with your guests? That’s what gives you the thrill. Or are you looking to make as much money as you possibly can? Are you looking to be a manager? Are you looking to be a leader?” I think you go in a direction that suits your passion.

I actually started in a kitchen. I was in the kitchen for, I think, seven or eight years before I ever went out front. I worked in a number of restaurants, and I learned from great chefs and great managers on really how the business operates. I was curious, so I learned how to write prep lists. I learned how to do scheduling. I think that’s how I ended up getting into the corporate side of restaurants. Even as a chef, I did go to school. I went to the University of Massachusetts, but after that I was a chef for a group down in North Carolina.

But I always asked questions. If you’ve read the biography of Gordon Ramsay, one of the things he talks about is, “it’s great to be curious and learn and make lots of mistakes. I encourage you to only make the same mistake once.”

Kirk Bachmann: It’s good advice.

Brian Blum: An executive chef wants to teach, but he doesn’t want to keep teaching you over and over again the same thing.

A Passion for Wine and Spirits

Kirk Bachmann: It’s like anything. It’s like a baseball coach or a football coach. Same thing. Curiosity is a great word. I’m glad you brought that up. By the way, full transparency, it’s okay to be motivated by making a lot of money. That’s a very honest feeling.

By the way, I went to the University of Oregon, but I partied at U-Mass.

Talking about curiosity, I want to pop over to Evan real quick. I learned before we started the show that he did a really cool event with Bobby Stuckey. It’s amazing; after several years and many, many, many episodes of the Ultimate Dish, it’s like the six degrees of Kevin Bacon. Somehow, some way, it all kind of comes together. Evan lives down the road in a really nice area of Denver. Like I said, it’s super cold today.

I’d love for you to talk a little bit about your sommelier experience, and then how you got into that – where that passion was fueled. Talk a little bit about your experience with Bobby, who is a great friend of the school. I’m looking out at the Frasca Learning Lab. One of our classrooms is actually named after one of his flagship restaurants. Tell us more, Evan.

Evan Kaplan: Sure. Absolutely. One of the last operational positions I had was a director of food and beverage at Cherry Hills Country Club just south of Denver. For most paying attention at home, it’s like a private club on steroids. It is probably one of the most difficult positions I’ve ever had, but also one of the most rewarding positions I’ve ever had, not only from the guest service standpoint, but from a food perspective, from spirits, from wine. You name it, it was at the top of everything. It was something that gave me a platform for me to explore my passion for wine and spirits.

I was able to, through being a director of food and beverage there, I started as a restaurant GM and found my way working my way up. I was able to sit for my introductory somme and then certified somme. I had the opportunity to get my introductory sommelier at a Southern Wine & Spirits warehouse just south of Denver.

Bobby Stuckey was there. I’m forgetting the names of the other ones, but five master sommes happened to be in town while we were there. One of the guys was from Aspen. It was one of the more unbelievable experiences that I’ve ever had. Getting myself introduced that way, watching Bobby line up 60 glasses of wine and taking a sniff and sip of each one and naming every single one. I think it took him ten minutes. It was one of the cooler things I’ve ever done, being able to blind test and taste now on my own feels good.

Unfortunately – well, fortunately, I’ve been recruiting for eight years. My chops are not as good and strong as they used to be.

Kirk Bachmann: Better than 98 percent of the population.

Evan Kaplan: Probably better than most, but something that I definitely hold near and dear to my heart was watching those sommes up there and having them teach us and talk about it. It certainly inspired me to continue to pursue my wine education and continue to really embrace that with the membership that we had at Trails Country Club. It was a special group. I think we had a cellar of well over a million. It was a pretty impressive list, popping about 60 corks a night. It was a lot of fun. It was a good time at Cherry Hill.

And much like Brian, hundred hours a week. You’ve got to love it, and I loved it. I loved it so much I almost became my own worst enemy because I just worked a ton. I was really dedicated to making that special part of that membership’s lives, so to speak. It was great.

Kirk Bachmann: And it’s a tremendous addition to your resume. Anyone that’s close to Denver or even in the West understands the the importance of Cherry Hills.

Ironically enough, the current director of culinary there is a gentleman by the name of Ruben Garcia. He was most recently at Augusta in Georgia. His wife worked for us. She’s our director of curriculum and content development. The world continues to get a little bit smaller.

When’s the last time you were there?

Evan Kaplan: At the club?

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah, because they just went through a big remodel.

Evan Kaplan: They’ve been through a $20-million renovation, which I remember – this was eight years ago – they were talking about doing it. I haven’t gone back since. I was there for two years and played golf twice. I was just working. That’s how it goes. Most food and beverage professionals who work a private club have never seen the course. That was the case with me.

Nonetheless, walking through the place was three U.S. Open titles, a Phil Mickelsen title, an Andy North title. Walking through the Hall of Champions in that club can give you goosebumps even if you don’t like golf. It’s a special place.

How Gecko Connects People

Kirk Bachmann: I’m getting goosebumps. I love it.

You bring up such an important point. I was a chef at a country club years and years ago in Oregon. It was the largest private club in Oregon at the time. To your point, I never played the course. I bragged about the course to everyone, but I’d never been on it. I couldn’t believe it. I just couldn’t find the time to carve four hours out of your day or your week. Great story.

Before we dive into the current landscape of the hospitality industry as we know it with both of you, I want to set the stage just a little bit for those listening. Escoffier has been a leader in culinary education for quite some time, all the way back to Auguste Escoffier over a hundred years ago. Now, with Gecko Hospitality on board as one of our partners, we’re really enhancing the way we connect our students to real-world opportunities. Again, we’re super fortunate to have two experts like Brian and Evan on the show. As leaders at Gecko, could you both share a little bit more about what this partnership means for both Escoffier students and Gecko Hospitality clients? Perhaps build the bridge for us a little bit? Evan, why don’t you go first?

Evan Kaplan: I can take it. With Escoffier students, I think the first thing that comes to mind is access. It’s just access. It’s made opportunities more accessible to a greater number of candidates who might not know some of the arenas that we play in.

As you know, Gecko Hospitality has two divisions within our organization. There’s a restaurant-specific division and then a hospitality division. You’ve got two partners who cover both sides of the coin. Brian is specializing in restaurants, corporate dining, higher education, things like that. I’m specializing in hotels, resorts, private clubs. Almost the redheaded step-child is junior-level candidates not knowing about the opportunities that line a private club. I feel like I’ve had that phone call quite a bit. Being able to open the avenue to the student body that there are a greater number of opportunities available.

On the flip side of that, the clients that we’re working with – there’s no secret that there’s a massive shortage of junior-level candidates in the culinary world. Having access to that talent pool within Escoffier from a Gecko Hospitality standpoint is a game-changer for us. Having the ability to connect a chef de cuisine or a chef de partie, or a junior sous that we might not know of if we had not had Escoffier’s access to those students.

I think it’s a win-win for everyone, but it certainly opens things up for the Escoffier student body.

Kirk Bachmann: I love that. It’s appreciated, and it’s really, really good information for our current students and our grads to know. I’ll volley over to Brian here, but I wanted to [get] Brian’s feedback. We talked about Rob a little bit earlier, the founder of Gecko. He mentioned in a press release not too long ago, and I quote: “By pooling expertise, we’re able to expand the scope of our operations and continue to provide personalized services to connect quality candidates with the businesses who need them.” Brian, from your perspective or Gecko’s perspective – for our students and soon to be grads – could you share a little bit more about how the recruitment process works? What do our students and grads need to be thinking about? Is it different [from] traditional recruitment models that people are used to? Maybe both of you could talk about some cool, unique opportunities that graduates can have access to.

Brian Blum: I think the first thing is to think of us as your life partners on the career side of your life. You’re going to have a partner in hopefully marriage or in life on the personal side, but we’re here through your entire career to help you grow your career and see the opportunities. I would encourage Escoffier students and graduates to get us your resume with your contact information. Then, make a point to always keep it up to date. Keep your emails up to date. Don’t go changing your cell phone and your email every year just because you’re getting a lot of spam. Really hone in on keeping it stable, up-to-date.

We let you know of opportunities as they arise. Evan and I, we work separate sides of the business, but we do share candidates. We each have recruiters who work for us, and they all share information and candidates with each other. We’re aware of a lot more opportunities than maybe just our side of the business.

The Roles of Resumes and Seasonal Work

Kirk Bachmann: I even have students come into the office a lot. You mentioned resumes. They ask about the relevance or importance of a [resume]. I like a good resume! If a candidate walks in and hands me a cover letter, I’m whistling Dixie. Is it still relevant, with all the stuff out there – LinkedIn and TikTok and Pages? Any thoughts there?

Brian Blum: I think a resume is extremely important. Think of it as a business card. It’s an introduction. “This is who I am. This is my career.” As far as LinkedIn goes, make sure you have a vibrant LinkedIn page. Any time you cook something, take a picture of it. Pop it on your LinkedIn page. Make a post. Explain: This is the dish; this is who I made it for. I was catering a party of 400 today and here is some of the food we presented. Put it all up there. Let the world know what you’re doing.

Kirk Bachmann: That’s good feedback. You know that we’re going to play this in front of thousands of students. It echoes what we are trying to help [with]. We start working on resumes with our students Day One. We get them thinking about it right away.

Brian Blum: As far as recent grads, Evan mentioned that we recruit in New England. We have a lot of seasonal clients. A lot of seasonal clients: Martha’s Vineyard, Nantucket, Cape Cod, the coast of Maine, the seacoast of New Hampshire, the mountains of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont. They’re looking for people that can come in and work for a few months. The interview processes are starting now at the executive chef and sous chef levels, but also sushi chefs. If you just want to get in a kitchen and learn to cook and cook in volume, those seasonal restaurants do really high volume. You can learn. You can learn somewhere during the day and somewhere during the evening. Sometimes they’ll provide housing. You can just learn and soak up what there is to learn in those high-volume kitchens.

Then, at the end of the season, you have the experience to go into a nice restaurant in a city somewhere and say, “Hey, here’s what I did this summer. Now I’m looking for the next step in my career.” Or you reach out to Evan or I. “Hey, what do you have now that I can parlay this experience into something else.” I do have clients that are always looking for junior sous chefs.

Industry Trends

Kirk Bachmann: Sure. That’s great feedback. Really wise.

I’d like to shift over to today’s job market and opportunities and career growth. We’ll start by looking at the market for chefs. The job market for recent culinary school grads is competitive, but it’s also bright. According to the National Restaurant Association, the restaurant industry is the second largest employer in the country. The industry workforce is projected to grow by 200,000 jobs. That puts us at almost 16 million places of employment by the end of this year.

I think I’ll throw it over to you, Evan. What trends are you seeing, is Gecko seeing, that are shaping these opportunities for young cooks that want to become chefs? Are there certain roles or sectors that are seeing a lot more growth than other areas?

Evan Kaplan: That’s probably a two-fold answer, and you can steer me in the right direction if I veer too far off course. What I’m seeing and what I’m feeling is probably the same thing that Brian is seeing. In the hotel, resort, private club side, the memberships in private clubs and the guests in hotels want to experience what they are having happen to them outside the four walls of the hotel or club. Bringing in the outside influence of those public restaurants that are getting served for private clubs.

Then, the flip side of that – it’s escaping me where the fact and the statistic came out, but I think 80 percent of the revenue that is going to be coming out of a hotel/resort, a lot of that is going to be driven from food and beverage. The majority of that RevPAR (Revenue Per Available Room) that comes out of a hotel is not only going to be coming out of rooms; it’s going to be coming out of food and beverage. Gone are the days of REITs and hotel management companies that are just looking to get revenue from there. Hotel food and beverages departments aren’t in the red anymore. They are not getting operated that way. It is becoming a revenue driver.

What does that mean for students? Don’t pick the wrong one because there are plenty of choices and plenty of avenues that you can go. If you’re going to find some hotel group to work for, and they say, “Okay, there’s a mandate of 110 hours a week” – no, there isn’t. That’s also at the forefront of what’s taking place. A big trend is empathy and quality of life. You hear it. “I’m protecting my mental health.” Working 110 hours a week is not good for your mental health. I think the companies that are putting that at the forefront are attracting the talent that wants to be there. Yeah, that organization might have to hire more people to support that revenue and that budget, but it’s working because the tenure is starting to be there. We are experiencing [fewer] people wanting to leave because they have someone who takes care of the most important things: physical, financial, and mental well-being. The clients that we work with that do that – they don’t really need us anymore. That’s good for them, and it’s good for the industry as a whole. Obviously, it’s not good for [the] business, but it’s good as a whole. It’s nice to see because I think the three of us on this call probably come from a school that did not have that during that time. Maybe we’re gluttons for punishment, or we just really loved what we did. That’s really what we’re seeing that is at the forefront right now in the hiring trends.

Brian Blum: To piggyback: in the restaurant world, the largest restaurant company in the world, as far as full-service restaurants goes, is Darden. They own Olive Garden and Longhorn. They own Ruth’s Chris Steak House. They own Capital Grille, Seasons 52 and others. They are a great company to work for in terms of quality of life. Also in terms of financially, their executive chefs, their general managers make over $150,000 a year unless they are not doing their jobs correctly.

When you’re ready to be a sous chef or an assistant restaurant manager and then grow your career and you want to work for that corporate restaurant company with great benefits, they’re a great company to work for.

On the restaurant side, what I’m seeing a tremendous amount of growth is in the small local restaurant groups that own five to ten restaurants, one owner or a group of partners. Each restaurant’s a different concept, but they’re keeping it local within a certain area. They are almost owning a market, I guess you could say, because a lot of people – they want to go out to eat. People do go out to eat often; even when the economy is bad, people are going out. They may get something a little less expensive on the menu, but they want to go out. They want service. Being able to go out, and then for one company to be able to have the same customers go to all their restaurants, but have slightly different menus and slightly different experiences allows them to – I hate to say own the customer – but own the customer experience.

Unique You and Unique Paths

Kirk Bachmann: I started getting goosebumps when Evan started talking about what’s important to people entering our industry. Yeah, you’re right. The three of us: what was important to us a long time ago, even when I first started instructing students, was storytelling, but with storytelling of how hard we worked and how little recognition that we got. It was almost this crazy badge of honor. On top of that, I did a lot of competitions and all of that, which defines us all. Evan studied really, really hard for this.

Today, young people don’t necessarily need those stories. They want to be heard. We do something that we call “flipping the classroom.” Rather than lecturing at our students, we give them some information to take a look at for themselves. Then when we come together again as a class, we ask questions, or they ask questions of our instructors. We talk about it.

I just wanted to point out how thoughtful the responses are. This is a beautiful industry from our perspective. We’ve all come from a different path. I’m a fourth-generation cook, my dad likes to say. My dad’s a master pastry chef by German standards. I just have this crazy respect and admiration for those who create beautiful customer service experiences, as you said, Brian.

One thing before I go on, I want to ask Evan another question. How do you guys feel about asking someone who is looking for a job where they see themselves? Where do you see yourself? In other words, what job’s best for me versus what job am I best for? Does that make sense? Turning the table a little bit. Either of you can take a shot at that one.

Evan Kaplan: I think I ask that question infrequently. I think most of the recruiters on my team and myself, when we get to the point of asking personal questions. I think we do get to the point where we say, “Okay, what’s the short game? What’s the mid-game? What’s the long game? Where do you want to be? Where does someone go?” I think that question, the responses you get are going to vary based off the candidate’s age group. I think it’s going to be based off where they see themselves and where they’re going to go.

I do think it’s an important question to ask. It’s one that we still incorporate. We might not put it out there as directly as you did, but we almost let that elevate to the surface by asking basic questions. We ask this question all the time. We’ll flip it to you. “What makes you unique?” The responses we get are unbelievable. The boring, corporate, robotic answers, and then some people give responses of creativeness and thoughtfulness, and really opening up. The ones that open up, you can typically see, “Okay, this is where they want to go. This is where they want to be.”

I think where the candidates that we talk to, dependent on where they are, we talk to people who are right out of culinary school at 21, and we talk to candidates who are in the twilight of their careers at 61 who still want to chef it and get after it. We love talking to those candidates as well. That answer is going to vary, and we try to gently guide them to the right place as well. Not only are we recruiters. You can see we have some thoughtful, tenured ones as well. We’ll help guide the candidates. I think that’s important to do, just to be honest about it and really put that honesty at the forefront of all the conversations we have.

Kirk Bachmann: What makes you unique? I absolutely love that. I’m going to incorporate that into my parenting. I might even ask my wife tonight. What makes you unique? I’ll get an answer for sure.

From a recruiter’s perspective, how do you think the demand for traditional roles compares to some of the newer, more specialized [roles?] We have students say, “I want to be a food stylist,” or “I’m really interested in culinary media.” We have a food entrepreneurship program. “I want to open up my own place. That’s why I’m here.” How do you compare that to the traditional path the three of us came up through?

Brian Blum: I’ll take that one. There’s a little thing that’s out there in the world called AI. You may have heard of it. When I think of a food stylist, I think of a job that’s not going to exist in about three years because that’s something AI can do. AI is not going to be able to cook a steak, but AI can put together a picture of a steak created from a thousand other pictures of a steak. Right? I just don’t think that profession is going to be around.

I think in terms of entrepreneurship – I would highly recommend entrepreneurship, even if it’s a side gig. Get involved with a food incubator where you can rent space in a kitchen once a week, once a month. You can go in and make the best chili in the world. You’re going to jar your chili, make it, jar it, and you’re going to sell it to little local markets, who are then going to sell it to the end customer. Or preserves. I know a woman who makes Rice Krispie Treats and then sells them at little places on the counter. Little bakeries will sell them. It’s a side gig. It’s a side hustle. It doesn’t have to be anything fancy. It just has to be something you’re passionate about and that you think you can make money at.

And sometimes those lead into other opportunities, like owning your own food truck. From a food truck, I see food truck owners then going into owning their own restaurants. They kind of build that way.

Kirk Bachmann: With that said, Brian – and I love that response. It’s what students want to hear; it’s why they are attracted to entrepreneurship, the possibilities, the imagination. What’s the best advice for a recent grad or anyone that wants to come into this industry about positioning themselves to take advantage of those sorts of opportunities? Probably giving Gecko a call, right?

Evan Kaplan: I certainly think Brian and I could gear and drive someone in the direction that they would want to go, but nothing’s going to be given to you. I still think that’s real and echoes and is a very resounding truth in our space. People want to be an executive chef, but you can’t run a P&L? You’re not going to be an executive chef. I mean, you might be if you have a really great owner or a great GM at a hotel, or resort, or private club, or even restaurant. But if you’re going to run a business, you’ve got to understand the financials.

I’ve been on another Escoffier call when we talked about the triple threat of the chef. You’ve got to have the culinary chops, the leadership chops, and the financials. If you don’t have all three, there’s always going to be one that’s going to be a weakness, and there can’t be a weakness in that foundation as a chef. Listen, there are going to be some professional culinarians that don’t want to run a P&L. That’s okay, too. I think you have to be real with yourself with what you can do and what you want to do. As a young culinarian coming out of a culinary school, if you just want to cook and be in the culinary world to start, that’s fine, too. IF you want to get to that next level, I think you’ve got to really put forth. “How am I going to figure it out? Do I need to take leadership classes? Should I ask my exec sous chef if I can follow him and stage with him for a few weeks?” I think there’s a way to go out there and get it.

Initiative to Learn

Kirk Bachmann: I’m glad you said that. I was going to go down this path. I was on that call, by the way, Evan. It’s really, really important when we talk about leadership roles. There’s demand for employees at the executive level, the sous chef level – like we’ve talked about: in restaurants, hotels, casinos. There’s a lot of narrative and literacy around what it takes to move up from entry level positions like line cooks and sous chefs and so on and so forth.

What I was going to ask is what should culinary students be thinking about to set themselves up for leadership opportunities in the future, and I think you sort of addressed that. You need three things.

Evan Kaplan: You need three things, and it’s the initiative that someone needs to take to actually do it. I don’t know. I still don’t think things get handed to people. It’s the ones who speak up and say, “Hey. I don’t know much about numbers, but I know I need to be able to run a business. What do I need to do to figure it out?”

Brian Blum: A good example of that is when you get out of culinary school. Maybe your first job is maybe a prep cook in a restaurant. After about 30-45 days, you’ve mastered being a prep cook. Your sous chef or your executive chef is writing your prep list for you. Maybe you ask, “Hey, will you teach me how to write a prep list, so I can do it and then you don’t have to.” You’re taking that off of your sous, off of your exec chef, bringing it onto your back.

Then you’re writing the prep list for your work, and you’re prepping. Then maybe you start to notice, “Hey, I’d also like to learn to work the line. During the lunch rush, I can go up and bail out somebody who needs to be bailed out.” So you ask, “Hey, can I learn to be the fry cook? To work saute? To work the grill?” And you gradually learn the kitchen, and you learn all the different stations.

And then you start saying, “Can I learn the expo? I want to be the person leading the kitchen during rush.” You still might be the prep cook, but you’re coming up in the middle of the rush to expo and help the team that way. When you see your sous chef, your executive chef placing food orders. Again, after you’ve mastered your position. You don’t want to do this Day One. Once you’re good at what you’re doing, and you have a little bit of a relationship. “Hey, I noticed you’re purchasing produce today. Can you teach me how to do that?” And learn how to do it.

Then, ask, “Can I take that off your hands?”

Kirk Bachmann: That is such a wonderful comment. Isn’t that what we want from our children, too? I think what you just said there, Brian, transcends our industry. Whether you’re an apprentice plumber or a carpenter, or you’re a new lawyer in a firm? Sure, you want to learn as much as you possibly can. I absolutely love the relevance of that comment.

Brian Blum: So sous chefs tend to jump around every year or so. They want to go work for a new executive chef to learn. So when your sous chef leaves, they can either bring you with them because they really like you and your energy and your willingness to learn. Maybe they’re being promoted to their own exec chef role and they want to bring you as their sous chef. Or, the executive chef is going to need someone to fill that sous role, and they’re going to be looking for that person who wants to learn and do everything, but also who is the leader. One of the beauties of learning expo is you’re leading the team. A sous chef is a leader – a leader who cooks.

Job-Hopping vs. Stability

Kirk Bachmann: That’s a perfect segue to talking about job-hopping versus career stability. I’m glad you brought that up. There was a time, even in the circles of the American Culinary Federation, if you didn’t work in one specific position for at least a year – twelve months – it wasn’t recognized on the resume. “Don’t even put it on your resume.” I think that’s changed. Your example of having a great gig in the mountains of New Hampshire for ski season – there’s a lot of value there. Of course I want to see that on your resume, whether it was 45 days or 95 days.

What’s your take on job-hopping early on? It’s a very European approach. I’ll give you an example. I don’t know that it’s necessarily job hopping, but in order for my father to become what they call the Meister in Germany, he had to do what was called a journeymanship for six years and an apprenticeship for three. During the journeymanship, he was passed along from one property to the next by the owner, by the chef, by the baker – whoever it was. It was a path that he had to earn certain hours. It was important for him to see a lot of different things. The apprenticeship was in one area, one place.

I’m just curious what you gentlemen think about the idea of job-hopping early on. Does it open doors? Does it demonstrate a building of experience? Or does stability in a kitchen – in one kitchen – become more important as you grow in your career down the road?

Brian Blum: From my perspective it’s based on what my client tells me they want. I’ve got clients that want job stability. That’s what’s really important to them. Job stability today is no more than three jobs in six years. At least, that’s what clients tell me. It used to be no more than two jobs in five years, but they don’t even want to see the candidate.

I think when you’re young in your career and you’re learning, I think the key isn’t stability as much as: are you always learning? Are you always coming in and getting something new today? If the learning stops wherever you are, then it’s time to move on until you’re ready to get into a leadership role. Once you’re a leader, it changes a little bit. If you’re a sous chef, again, the expectation is you’re going to stay a sous somewhere for at least a year. If I see someone with sous chef positions two every year, that’s a red flag to me. There’s someone that maybe people don’t want to work with or for.

Kirk Bachmann: Evan, what about loyalty? Where’s loyalty come in? What do your clients tell you about that?

Evan Kaplan: I think it’s interesting what Brian said about it just depends on what my clients want. I think that’s an important reason, Number One, to partner with us from the client perspective because that is what we do, and everybody wants different things. I think listening to what our clients want is big. Being a professional recruiter, much like Brian, I think gaining experience and gaining value in a young person’s career to start is everything.

If you go somewhere and you’re somewhere for three months, and then the next place is six months, and then the next place is four, that could put up a red flag, no question about it. But if a recruiter digs in and asks, “Why were you here for three months?” “Hey, that was a contract gig. I was the saucier there for three months. The owner liked me so much he moved me over to the next place, and then I learned how to do the grill.”

I think the experiences that you get, whether you’re staging, doing an apprenticeship, doing something else early on, I think that can really set you up. I can tell you that if I see a resume of someone who has seven years of experience, and one candidate was there for seven years at one job, and the other was at four, guess where I’m going? I’m going for the one that’s had a diverse experience at three different types of places.

That’s something that makes Brian and I unique within Gecko Hospitality. He recruits a different space than I do, yet we share the most candidates of any operation within the whole company. There’s a reason for that because our clients want that diversified talent. Someone who’s worked at a restaurant, private club, and for Aramark is probably going to be pretty good. They’ve probably experienced a lot of different things, and that makes them unique. We come back to that word again. What’s going to set you apart from everybody else? I think that’s what really resounds with me there.

Kirk Bachmann: I appreciate that.

I also want to touch a little bit on a topic that’s increasingly becoming more and more important in today’s market. Kitchens are diverse. There are a number of individuals who are Spanish-speaking. What role does being fluent in both English and Spanish play in career development, and how does it help cooks and chefs in leadership positions to be able to better work with diverse teams?

Brian Blum: I would think being bilingual, tri-lingual is extremely important. I would say if there’s one language you should know as a chef or a cook or anyone in a kitchen, it’s Spanish. I know a majority of the restaurants, at least in cities, are Spanish-speaking kitchens. That doesn’t mean they only speak Spanish, but when they’re talking to each other, they’re speaking in Spanish. As the leader, you should understand and be able to understand everything they’re saying, and then be able to speak to them in their first language. Especially during the rush when you’re trying to move things along, the less they have to think about other than their actual job, the better.

How to Make a Good Impression

Kirk Bachmann: Good advice. Good advice. Another topic: with a lot of people competing for similar roles, what do you look for in an individual being able to differentiate themselves? What’s the advice to building a food portfolio, social media presence? How do students, graduates today showcase themselves and – [here’s] the unique word again – they’re unique talents so that they make a lasting impression on Brian and Evan, on Gecko, and the clients you serve? This is probably the most important question that we’re asking today.

Evan Kaplan: It’s a great question. On our team right now, we’re actually recruiting four executive chef positions. We get all walks of life that are applying for this role: people who are in the early stages of their careers, people who are in the mid, people who are in the twilight. I think setting yourself apart and being real with yourself. If you’re just going to send pictures of all the desserts you’ve done for an executive chef role, they’re probably going to want to see some entrees and some appetizers and some other things. Diversifying what you put out there. Obviously, not taking them from other places, which we see sometimes. It still boggles my mind.

It’s one where you want to put your best food forward and make sure you are taking pictures of the items that you’re doing. It’s so powerful to be able to do this from a social media perspective or a visual perspective, or a video perspective, to be able to see what you can do is everything. Because at the end of the day, you have this piece of paper that’s a resume. If you’re looking at that versus someone who is going to show you, “This is my LinkedIn page; this is my Instagram feed; this is my food portfolio.” The more you can showcase yourself from print, the better. I think it’s important to do. I’ve had people ask why, and they don’t get an interview. Then I have other people who say, “Here you go, here you go, here you go,” they’re getting through the door quite quickly. People get impressed.

We’re all big dumb animals at the end of the day. We want to see pictures. We want to see video. There’s a reason it does. To diversify yourself with being real about the best work you can put out there, you should do it.

Kirk Bachmann: We eat with our eyes, just like a good menu. One hundred percent.

Brian Blum: I would also just add to that: be willing to jump backwards sometimes. Maybe you get your first sous role or even an exec chef role. Be willing to go work at French Laundry as a prep cook for six months, or any two, three, or even one Michelin Star restaurant. To have that on your resume with someone who is looking for an executive chef that can be creative, that’s huge.

How to Crush an Interview

Kirk Bachmann: I’m so happy to hear you say that because those are the conversations we have a lot with our students. Go try to go work for Bobby. Just try. They’ve worked so well with us to try to make some of those dreams come true.

What are some Gecko insider tips to really crushing an interview?

Evan Kaplan: I think the way that someone can crush an interview is to obviously be confident and be forthright with your answers. The thing I was thinking about while the both of you were talking is these experiences that we all have in life, in culinary, in food, in recruiting – everything. Share those experiences. Share those stories. No one wants to hear, “I’m a natural born leader. I’m great. I’m very organized.” No one wants to hear that stuff.

I want to hear about your experiences. I want to hear about the nightmare that you had on Valentine’s Day when there were a hundred tickets coming out of the window. How did you dig yourself out of it? I want to hear those types of things from culinary candidates. I want to hear how you figured out how to make stock from an executive chef who’d been around for fifty years, and then you finally got it right when you met him. Those are things that we want to hear, or at least, those are the things that our clients want to hear. We come back to that uniqueness. Those things that make you stand out: I think that’s the way you can crush an interview without getting ahead of your skis. You don’t want to throw too much out there, but I think being as professionally honest and real as you can in an interview will get you to the next stage and probably land you the gig that you’ve always wanted to get.

Being real with yourself and not getting ahead of your skis. If you’ve been an executive chef in a hotel that has 30 rooms, and now you’re going to apply to a role that has a thousand might not be the best. Just like Brian said, maybe you’re willing to take a step back to go ahead. I think that is what sets people apart, and something that I honestly look for. I do at least five interviews a day. I want to hear different things from different people, and I would imagine you do, too. Guests on this show, you probably want to hear some unique things.

Kirk Bachmann: I love the answer. I’m not 100 percent sure I was anticipating that answer, but that’s really comforting to hear. The experiences, the sharing of the experiences, the stories.

Brian Blum: I think it’s important, first of all, to know who you are interviewing. Look them up on LinkedIn. Study their background. If you’re interviewing at a certain restaurant or hotel, know who you’re interviewing and know the history of that property, who the owners are. Who were the last executive chefs that worked there? What was their background? You can go on LinkedIn and just put in the name of a property, and all the people who worked on that property are going to pop up. It’s out there.

But then, when you go to the interview, first of all, listen to the questions being asked. Answer that question. One of the things Evan mentioned is to tell stories, and he’s totally right. But there are people who don’t answer the question. Then there’s also some who go on and on and on and can’t stop talking. The thirty questions they have to ask you, they don’t have time to ask you those questions.

Kirk Bachmann: You guys are clearly a team. I’m so glad you jumped in there because I was going to ask that. How does the hiring party control the narrative? To your point, what if the person who wants the job just goes down a path that takes you nowhere?

Brian Blum: I’ll tell people sometimes, “Look, you just talk too much.” Yeah.

Kirk Bachmann: You’re coaching them.

Brian Blum: Just stop. I asked you a question, and for twenty minutes you’ve been giving me your life story. Answer the question. In an interview, if it takes twenty minutes to tell me something, you’re not getting the job, no matter how qualified you are.

Also, make sure you have questions to ask in an interview because they’ll ask you at the end of an interview, “Do you have any questions for me?” That’s a way that they’re judging that you’re really interested in the job. Everyone wants to be wanted. They want you to want them. Just because you’re sitting there doesn’t mean you want to work there.

Evan Kaplan: What Brian is saying is if I don’t have someone that tells me that they want the job, I won’t present them to the role. You want someone to sit across from you to – we talked about closing an interview at one point. If you don’t close the interview, chances are you are not getting a call back. The last question should always be, “Are there any questions that would prevent me from getting this job offer from you because I really want it?” Who’s not going to offer that person a job.

Kirk Bachmann: Wow!

Evan Kaplan: If they’ve done that interview, and they’ve crushed it, and they’ve gotten through, and they’ve answered the questions and paid attention, and then they get to the end and they close it? I give that advice to every candidate I speak to. “Before you go in there, when you’re done, and you start closing up, just ask the person, “Hey, I really want this job. Are there any other questions that you can ask that I haven’t answered already?” I think that just resonates with people. People want to know that you want the job. I think it’s that simple because there are plenty of people who just go in and answer the questions and just want to get through it to get to the next interview.

Memory Cafe

Kirk Bachmann: Can I just say, the chills that I’m hearing are real. One question that I ask in any interview if I’m interviewing for a role at the school, for years – you go through the interview, you get to know the people, you listen to the stories, validate stuff that’s on their resume, all of this. But I always ask, “What are you looking for from us? What can we do?” The immediate response, 99 percent of the time, is “Wow, that’s a really good question.” Meaning, they don’t know. They hadn’t thought about it. They probably did better in their next interview, but they hadn’t thought about what they were looking for. I really, really love that. That’s a whole other episode. Noelle is going to have to set that up.

Brian, I’d be remiss if I didn’t give you the floor to talk a little bit about Memory Cafe. I looked it up. I was really touched by the research and the work that you’re doing. Can you share just a little bit if you’re comfortable doing that?

Brian Blum: For the last fifteen years, I’ve been a member of Rotary International. One of the great things about Rotary clubs is just being able to give back to the community and to the world. Doing some really good work around the world. There’s a huge foundation, so there’s lots of money available.

When I was in North Caroline, I was involved with a Rotary club where it was the 50th anniversary of Rotary. I was the president of my club that year. I was involved in the whole project of making that happen. For me, I was trying to create at the time a project that the five clubs in our town could work on together in perpetuity. Being from the hospitality industry, I’d heard of memory cafes, and I went to one. I thought, “This is something great we could do.”

Once a month, with the exception of covid, it’s been going on for about ten years now. What we would do is we would provide dinner, entertainment of some kind. The Elvis impersonators were always big hits with people with Alzheimer’s because they tend to think it’s really Elvis. Sometimes dancing. Then, for the caregivers, the wife or the children, it’s an opportunity for them to get together with other caregivers and share experiences. That’s what the memory cafe is all about.

Brian and Evan and Ultimate Dishes

Kirk Bachmann: That’s so beautiful. Thank you for doing that and for sharing that with our listeners.

This has been really, really fun. I was a little intimidated – two on one. You guys handled me very, very carefully. I appreciate that, but the toughest question is still to come. The name of the podcast is The Ultimate Dish. In your mind – we’ll go to Evan first – what is the ultimate dish? It could be a memory or an actual meal. It could be several courses. Your call.

Evan Kaplan: Oh boy. That’s like asking a chef, “What’s your favorite dish to cook?” and they’re going to look at you with the same response. I worked in an Asian-American restaurant for about eleven years, so I have a deep affection for Asian cuisine, Japanese and sushi especially. Yellowtail collar dishes are probably my favorite, when we get into that. Most people won’t order that, but I certainly do and was taught that way. Or any braised short rib dish is going to be [a hit] with me.

Kirk Bachmann: I’m there.

Evan Kaplan: That’s typically a route I would navigate to, especially where I reside. You get an elk filet, and I won’t turn it down. That’s where my mind goes. That’s probably another podcast that I could talk about for hours.

Kirk Bachmann: I’ll bring one of my son-in-laws on. He’s an avid fisherman and hunter, so he’ll talk to us about elk and tuna as well.

Evan Kaplan: That was great. Tough question. That’s a really tough question. I’m sure it could really open things up for you.

Kirk Bachmann: Sometimes I go down the path. Most of the folks that come on the show, the majority are chefs working in the industry, but I’ve had rugby champions and comedians and different people like that. It’s so funny, with chefs, though. Music always finds its way into the conversation, and/or motorcycles. It’s music, motorcycles, and the ultimate dish. Music for you, too, Evan?

Evan Kaplan: Music is extremely important to me. I’ve seen thousands of concerts. You probably won’t get that response from everyone. Or the country scene in music, and I still see quite a bit.

Kirk Bachmann: I didn’t even know that about you. Top three bands of all time: go.

Evan Kaplan: Top three bands of all time: Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, and Pink Floyd.

Brian Blum: I would have chosen any of them.

Kirk Bachmann: I love it. I love it. He’s mirroring me right there.

Brian, ultimate dish. What is it?

Brian Blum: I’m a meat guy. I have a smoker, and I smoke a lot of meat. I studied French cuisine, Italian cuisine, but I think my favorite dish – I was thinking about this when you asked the question. It goes back to when I was twelve years old, and for the first time, I had beef Wellington at the Rainbow Room in Rockefeller Center.

Evan Kaplan: Awesome.

Brian Blum: It was my grandparents’ anniversary dinner. It was awesome. I went home, and I said to my mom, “I want to learn to make that.” I taught myself how to make it at twelve years old.

Kirk Bachmann: Wow!

Brian Blum: I make beef Wellington, so Thanksgiving. I make turkey, but I’ll make beef Wellington. But then I thought, “What else can I do that’s Wellington?” So I make salmon Wellington, and my kids are like, “That’s better than beef Wellington.” Turkey Wellington. It’s all different, but it’s all the same idea with a puff pastry.

Kirk Bachmann: When you do the salmon, do you do the salmon Wellington with julienned vegetables underneath it or rice? What do you put under it?

Brian Blum: What I do is I make almost a creamed spinach that goes with the salmon inside the pastry dough. I’ll either do a Hollandaise or a beurre blanc as a sauce, and then julienned vegetables as well.

Kirk Bachmann: Very nice.

Brian Blum: It’s lovely.

Kirk Bachmann: Are you a music guy? Motorcycle?

Brian Blum: Well, I don’t have a motorcycle. My mom worked in hospitals and was like, “You’re never riding motorcycles! See them burned out on the side of the road.” I have a good motorcycle joke!

Kirk Bachmann: Is it clean?

Brian Blum: Oh, it’s clean. It’s clean. I was watching a video. The wife says to her husband, “You know, now that we have a child, it’s time, I think, for you to sell your motorcycle and to mature a little bit.” He says, “You know, you sound like my ex-wife.” She said, “You were married before?” He said, “No.”

Kirk Bachmann: “You sound like my next ex-wife.”

Brian Blum: So my favorite band of all time is the Eagles. Love the Eagles.

Kirk Bachmann: Good call.

Brian Blum: I think the growth of the band through the years was amazing. I love Fleetwood Mac. That’s another one. I think British rock: I loved the Kinks growing up. It was one of the first concerts I saw as a kid, that along with Ozzy Osbourne and Black Sabbath.

Kirk Bachmann: Oh my gosh.

Brian Blum: I think the Eagles are my favorite band of all time.

Kirk Bachmann: That’s a great call. Great dishes. Great calls on the bands. I’ve got a 650-GS BMW sitting in my garage. Literally sitting in my garage. My podium is U2, Fleetwood Mac, and Bob Seger, in that order.

Brian Blum: Nice. That’s awesome.

Kirk Bachmann: I’m not a Detroit fan, but he’s the king of Detroit. I saw Ozzy Osbourne in 1980. It was mind-altering back then.

Brian Blum: I’m sure it was awesome.

Kirk Bachmann: Hey, have you, Evan, being in the Denver area, have you ever been to Sunday Vinyl, Bobby’s place there by the train station? It’s right next to Tavernetta. He’s a big music guy, and he plays a different album. His wife selects the album every night, and that’s what they spin during service. Sunday Vinyl.

Evan Kaplan: I’m going to have to check that out.

Kirk Bachmann: You’ve got to pop in there. It’s right across the walkway of Tavernetta, which is right at the train station. Yeah. It’s just spectacular. Really, really great.

Gentleman! So, so appreciative. I’m going to see you guys next week in Orlando. I’m super, super excited for that. I’m going to call Rob in a little bit and tell him that you both behaved. Thank you. Much, much more continued success. Thanks for everything that you do for our students. So great to be partners. Part of the same company, different verticals. Really enjoyed our chat today.

Evan Kaplan: Looking forward to seeing you next week.

Kirk Bachmann: Absolutely. Absolutely. We’ll see you soon.

Thank you for listening to the Ultimate Dish podcast, brought to you by Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts. Visit escoffier.edu/podcast to find any materials mentioned during the podcast, including notes, links and other resources. And if you can, please leave us a rating on Apple or Spotify, and subscribe to support our show. This helps us reach more aspiring individuals ready to take the next step toward their dream careers. Thanks for listening.