Kevin Boehm: “How Hospitality Saved My Life”

TRANSCRIPT

Kirk Bachmann: Hello everyone. My name is Kirk Bachmann, and welcome back to The Ultimate Dish! Today, we have a very special guest returning to the show: Kevin Boehm, James Beard Award-winning restaurateur and now, published author.

It’s been almost a full year since Kevin first joined us in January of this year [2025], and what a year it’s been.

Kevin is a co-founder of the acclaimed Boka Restaurant Group alongside partner Rob Katz, with a portfolio of 23 restaurant concepts and a career spanning over three decades.

Their flagship restaurant, Boka, has earned 13 consecutive Michelin Guide stars, and together they’ve been recognized as TimeOut Chicago’s Restaurateurs of the Year, Eater National’s Empire Builders of the Year, and won the James Beard Award for Best Restaurateur in America in 2019.

But today, we’re here to talk about something very different—Kevin’s deeply personal new memoir, The Bottomless Cup, which was released in November.
The book has received extraordinary acclaim from figures like Danny Meyer, Will Guidara, Angela Bassett, and Bob Odenkirk, and it tells a story far beyond restaurants—one of family secrets, personal struggles, and the power of hospitality to heal.

So get ready for an honest, intimate conversation about what it really takes to build a life in this business.

And there he is! Oh my gosh! I’m almost getting emotional just with the introduction. How are you, my friend?

Kevin Boehm: I’m doing great.

Kirk Bachmann: And I was going to say how are things in Chicago, but I will say, How is Paris?

Rob Reiner and Producing Emotions

Kevin Boehm: You know what? Paris is great, but I’m a little sad today as I was a giant Rob Reiner fan. I posted something today that [Rob was part of] so much of my childhood. You go from “Spinal Tap” to “The Sure Thing,” which is one people a lot of times forget about, to “Stand By Me,” to “The Princess Bride,” to “A Few Good Men.” I mean, the guy was just money to start out his career. I left “Misery” out of there. There were six in a row there that were just monsters.

He was a good human. He was a cool human. He killed it on TV in “All In the Family.” If you haven’t done it, watch the YouTube scene between him and Archie Bunker saying goodbye in the finale. It’s beautiful. He was not a one-trick pony. If you look at all those movies, they were all vastly different. “Misery” was a nail-biting thriller. “Spinal Tap” is absurdity. “Stand By Me” is nostalgia.

I’m getting off track of what we’re here for, but we’re in the business of producing emotions, and so was he.

Kirk Bachmann: It’s really relevant, Kevin. Senseless in so many ways. But more than anything, to your point, it’s just really painful. It’s hard. It’s hard to read; it’s hard to fathom. Yes, thank you for bringing that up. Obviously well wishes to the family.

Kevin Boehm: Rob and his wife.

Chicago and the People I Like, Love, and Respect

Kirk Bachmann: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Well, you know, it’s been almost a year. I don’t know where this year has gone. I’ve no idea. So much has happened. Most notably, “The Bottomless Cup.” This is going to be right here until you show up in Boulder to sign it for me.

Before we dive in, there are so many questions. I’m so grateful for your transparency and your graciousness with your time and such. How is Chicago right now? I was there last week. Of course, we land, and then we go to the suburbs and meet. On occasion, I do have a student, Canyon. He’s with you at the mother ship for his externship. I hope he’s doing well. If he’s not, don’t tell me.

Kevin Boehm: Doing great. Yeah. Doing great.

Kirk Bachmann: How’s Chicago?

Kevin Boehm: You know what? Chicago is like a character in my life. It really is. It’s a character in the book. I have a love affair with Chicago; it’s my favorite city in the world. It really is. They’re my favorite people. There’s no place in the world that I feel more comfortable than there. And there are just a lot of people that I love there. The three pillars of my life are: do I wake up every morning with purpose, and is my reason behind that purpose a noble one? Two, do I run into the people I like, love, and respect along the way? And do I feel good about myself as the protagonist of my own story? That second one, do I run into the people I like, love, and respect: so many of those people are in Chicago.

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah, they are. They are.

I was reading in the sleeves. I was born and raised in Chicago by way of Germany, but still, Theo Epstein. He made the cover. Unbelievable. I thought I was going to play center field for the Cubs for years.

Kevin Boehm: Me too.

Kirk Bachmann: So did you.

Kevin Boehm: I thought I was coming out of the pen. When the fastball never went over seventy-two, I thought I probably didn’t have a chance.

Kirk Bachmann: I’ve got to look for something else.

Kevin Boehm: There are only so many Jamie Moyers who can throw seventy-two.

Telling the Story that Shaped Him

Kirk Bachmann: That’s the truth, like you say.

Let’s talk about “The Bottomless Cup.” I’ve got a lot here. I have to say, when we spoke last, you mentioned that, quote, “The restaurant business saved my life.” We’ll get back to that. And that you were always keeping the peace in your own home growing up. I remember thinking, “There’s a much deeper story there.” Now with the book out, it sounds like you have really been able to unpack that journey.

As we start chatting, for people who haven’t gotten to the book yet, in your words, Kevin, what’s the book about?

Kevin Boehm: I think it starts with my mom. My mom had a story she was never able to tell. My mom held her cards very close to her chest and did not have a lot of friends in life, but she had a story worth telling. She was one of fourteen kids who grew up on a farm and had about as bad of a childhood as you can have. She was farm labor at age six, beaten by her dad, sexually abused by a relative, got away to high school and said, “I’m going to be valedictorian of this high school, and I’m never going to come back to Roscommon, Michigan again.

As a lot of people did, they get away from a bad childhood – she gets a free ride to central Michigan – and they’re looking for a way out. She goes, “I’m going to marry the first nice guy I meet.” The guy sits down next to her in the cafeteria. She marries him at age eighteen. On their wedding night, he was screaming at her. And she was like, “Oh no! I don’t even know this man.” She ended up meeting an older man. She went to work for a guy that she was writing speeches for and scheduling him. He was a motivational speaker, a former professional boxer. He was fifty-one, and she was twenty-four. They had an affair.

Some eighteen years later, I get taken out to breakfast by a stranger, who told me, “I have a story to tell you.” The beginning of the book is, “In the summer of 1989, halfway through a Western omelet and a cup of coffee, I found out that I wasn’t really Kevin Boehm.” I’ll just leave that part there, but you can probably fill in the blanks.

I grew up in a very sad house. Foundationally, they say that ninety percent of who you are is you either tried to rebel or emulate a parent. A lot of what I became is because I rebelled against a parent. A lot of what I learned about in hospitality was because I lived in a very sad house that often had a lot of consternation.

I was like, “How can I build surrogate houses for myself that have a lot of happiness in them? Well, you know what? I can create them.” That’s kind of how the restaurant business saved my life. I was this bipolar kid who came from a sad background. I got this adrenaline, manic rush from opening up restaurants. They were like little cities to me. “Hey man, I don’t live in Springfield, Illinois. I live in Indigo, Illinois. I’m the mayor, and there’s a set of rules. We’re all going to like each other, and we’re going to have a good time. We’re going to throw a party every night. A bunch of people are going to come. They’re going to mess it up. We’re going to clean it up and do it again the next day.”

Kirk Bachmann: You’ve said that before: “We’re going to throw a party every night.” Think about how powerful that is. You’ve mentioned in an interview that you were writing this memoir to figure out who you were. That it wasn’t originally meant to be published. That was really insightful and powerful for me. At what point, Kevin, did you realize that you needed to share this story, that it needed to be told?

Kevin Boehm: When you’re not well-liked in your home growing up, you have a tendency to think that the only way that you can be liked or loved is by invention. I invented this avatar, this friendly neighborhood restaurateur that I sort of created. At a certain point, I was living someone else’s life, and I was very unhappy with it.

When I started writing this story, at first, even though I had already hooked up with a literary agent and I was writing it, I really hadn’t attached myself to the end result yet, that I was really going to put it out into the world. It was almost this meditative thing that I was doing every morning, writing two hours every day. While I was doing it, and while I was stripping all those coats of varnish off of the stories I’d told for years, replacing some of these lies with truths, you remember who you really were in the beginning, who you couldn’t become, and maybe who you really are. That’s kind of what it became.

It got pretty heavy pretty early on as I was writing it. I was really concerned with getting it right and having it be the truth. I had some witnesses in my life that I would go back to, especially my sister, and say, “Do you think I got this right?” It was one of the more special experiences in my life.

Opening Up

Kirk Bachmann: You mentioned that the beginning was particularly difficult. This is an unfair question, but what would you say was the hardest part of putting it on paper?

Kevin Boehm: Honestly, the hardest part was one chapter. There’s one chapter that, when you get to that weekend before copy editor. They’re like, “Well, when you turn this in on Monday, there ain’t no turning back, bro.” I was like, “Oh, I’m putting this out there in the world.” You spend a weekend trying to get used to it. There was one chapter that I was like, “Man. Am I putting that out there? Am I doing that? Who do I need…”

Kirk Bachmann: Opening yourself up. There it is.

Kevin Boehm: Here it is! Like it or not, these are the ABCs of me!

After that weekend, I felt really good about it because we all go through life with people looking at your life and sort of filling in the blanks. We haven’t walked in each other’s shoes. Everybody looks at fill-in-the-blank-of-your-famous-person. You’re just like, “Tom Cruise’s life must be really rad.” But he has the same complexities that everybody else does. We don’t know. Every person walking on the street.

At a certain point, I was like, “I don’t know how many people are going to read this, but the people who do and the people in my life that love me will read it. This is who I really am.” The other day my girlfriend had a friend of hers call because she had just finished my book. She said, “I think I know Kevin better than I do my own husband.”

Kirk Bachmann: To that point, Danny Meyer called it, and I quote, “A riveting page-turner about life, longing, self-discovery.” When you get that kind of response from somebody who really understands this industry like Danny does, like you do, and what it takes out of people, that must mean something. How has the response been? And here’s the harder part: are people reaching out to share their own stories with you as well?

Kevin Boehm: Oh yeah. There’s not been a day in the last month that I haven’t gotten a half dozen emails from people. Once you open that door a crack, and somebody says, “I think I might be bipolar. I’ve really been struggling a long time. I’ve never gone to a therapist. I had this happen in my childhood. This has never left me. I’ve got this weight that’s been on my shoulders for twenty years.” You hear all those things from people, and I kind of love it because I love engaging in those dialogues. It’s created some relationships with some people that I already had that just deepened them. So I welcome those conversations for anybody who reads the book.

That’s what you hope for. You write something like this, and you hope that somebody sees themself in it.

Smart, Cool, and Dangerous

Kirk Bachmann: It moves them, right. It’s a beautiful thing, giving back, which we try to do in this industry.

One thing that stuck with me from our last chat: at that time, you said, “Scratch most restaurants and you’ll reveal an addict.” You also described your early staff as a punk band playing a church gig. Renaissance folks who knew about food. They knew a lot about food, and wine, and music, and film, and life. I think about that a lot. As I look at my students, I think about that. This industry does attract a certain kind of human being, doesn’t it? People are running to, they’re running from, they’re trying to build something from scratch – maybe a different version of themselves. What is it about our industry, about restaurant life that makes it a refuge, a safe place, a common place, a familiar place for those people?

Kevin Boehm: Well, I think there are a bunch of reasons. One, people who have experienced real trauma in life are really good at restaurant trauma. Getting triple sat or twenty-plate pickup. They’re like, “whatever.”

Kirk Bachmann: It’s a stage! It’s a stage.

Kevin Boehm: Let’s go! You can make a lot of money in a short amount of time in this business. It is art, and so I think there are a lot of people who are artists who get attracted to it because they feel like they’re not cheapening themselves by being in it. It’s often this way-station for people who are actors, or great bass players, or amazing singers. You get a lot of artists and artist mentality within this industry. Like you said, I was like, “These people are smart and cool and dangerous. Yes! More of that.”

Kirk Bachmann: And dangerous. And dangerous.

Kevin Boehm: And dangerous. And so I loved it.

Kirk Bachmann: Underused word. I like it.

You built this incredible organization: twenty-three concepts, thousands of employees, lives, relationships, partnerships.

Kevin Boehm: I think we’re more than that now. I think we’re over thirty now.

Kirk Bachmann: I can’t even keep track! World-class talent, like Stephanie and Lee. All these creative, driven, intense people around you. How do you create an environment where people can leverage their true potential and really thrive?

Kevin Boehm: First of all, you treat them like partners because they are. A lot of times, that first meeting that we have at a restaurant where all the decision makers are sitting around the table. You just say, “Hey guys.” We always tell them everything about the project financially. We share every line item of every P&L. We tell them, “Hey guys. We’ve got $2.7 million wrapped up in this. Until we’ve made $2.7 million back, we haven’t made a dime. The faster we get to that number, the more money you are going to make. We’re all tied in this together. We’re all in the foxhole together. I want you guys to make more money and feel like you can move up. Let’s get there together.” It’s always “we.” We’re all doing it together. Try to make it so there’s less of a hierarchy. We’re doing a project together, and we all have specific skill sets within that project.

Failure Detective

Kirk Bachmann: I like that. I like that.

For young people that are entering this field, this career, this world, what do you wish someone would have told you about taking care of yourself while you were building your career in the hospitality industry?

Kevin Boehm: I wish somebody would have broken it down with me from the beginning and, first of all, said, “Who do you want to be?” And then said, “Well, Kevin, you don’t have to recreate the wheel. Here’s how Sirio or Danny – or whoever I would have said – got there. Because I felt like I was having to build the architecture. I took this crazy circuitous route that maybe I didn’t have to. I think somebody could have just told me, “First of all, study and know your craft. And here are the things that you need to do.”

You’re a general, a five-star general. They’re called a general because they have general knowledge of everything. That’s why they are a general manager. In order to fully manage and be a great restaurateur, you have to be able to expedite and be a food runner and know how to hold a plate, and knows what happens at garde manger, and knows how to work on the line, and knows how to fix the dishwasher when it goes down, and knows a little bit about plumbing and HVAC. This general knowledge of everything. That would have been the first thing: know a little bit about everything.

And then, if they talk to me about concepts and later on, it occurred to me that, “We’re going to go into a room, and half of the board is going to be, ‘here are the core competencies that it takes to do this concept.’ And the right side is how we’re going to bend it, and how we’re going to make it ours to our specific DNA.” I wish somebody had taken me through all these things so I knew what the bar was that I had to get up to. Instead, I just kind of flew blind.

Kirk Bachmann: I’m going to contradict even myself. Go off script here. You landed where you wanted to be, where you were supposed to be without any of that. If you did it again, would you value that feedback, or did you do better on your own?

Kevin Boehm: I probably short-term did worse and long-term did better. So, I took my licks. I guess it would have been great not to pay those penalties on the taxes.

Kirk Bachmann: Those sting. Yeah.

Kevin Boehm: It would have been great not to flame out in Nashville and all those things that happened, but the key to failure is being a good detective. There was part of me, especially after Nashville happened, which I go to in the book, where afterwards, you want to deflect blame because you don’t want to think about yourself in that way. So being a good detective both in success and in failure. Rudyard Kipling has the great poem, “If.” And he talks about tragedy and triumph, and he says that you should treat those two impostors just the same, which is love. Because they are! Repeatable success, you can start to think, “I have something going on.” But you can catch lightning in a bottle for no apparent reason and have something be successful. It’s too easy to start thinking, “I’ve solved it. I don’t need to do anything else.” That’s when the universe says, “Nuh-uh-uh. Guess what I’m going to do to you?”

I’m a pretty good detective these days, and I can even look at something and say, “You know what? It’s successful, but we got maybe a little lucky there because of X. Let’s get even better now. Let’s not leave anything on the table.”

Kirk Bachmann: That’s fair.

Kevin Boehm: People leave a lot of things on the table when they’re successful. Big sales mask inefficiency. You had really good timing on a concept, so right now, people are peeling to the concept, but somebody’s going to come in a year and do it better than you are if you don’t continue to improve.

Kirk Bachmann: Such great advice. By the way, as I sit here as the president, I get asked to check the HVAC as well, by the way. Something the board hates that I do. But you’re pulled to it somebody.

Kevin Boehm: You are. You sure are. You can have great food and great design and great hospitality, but if it’s eighty-six degrees inside your restaurant in July, your restaurant still stinks.

Making People Feel Seen

Kirk Bachmann: Same. Same.

Something you said in our last interview – another thing you said in our last interview – really stayed with me. I’ve used it. Sheepishly, I’ve stolen it from you. You said, “Hospitality is about making people feel seen.” I just absolutely adore that. That’s powerful. That’s a powerful philosophy. Knowing your story and more of your story now, I think I have a better understanding of where that comes from. We talked about this before, but I just think it’s so important that you share, Kevin, how you actually create that feeling for both your guests and your staff. What is it like making people feel seen? What you talked about last time was to get something in their hands right away. I want a drink, amuse-bouche in their hands right away. I see you. I’m going to take care of you.

Kevin Boehm: I’m going to throw some love to a Boulder person, which is Bobby Stuckey.

Kirk Bachmann: Bobby!

Kevin Boehm: When we created the Independent Restaurant Coalition, and we started to lobby with senators, I jumped on a call with Bobby. At the beginning of the call, Bobby had done some research on the senator. He was like, “You know, Senator Casey, congratulations on that transportation bill last year.”

He was like, “Well, thank you, Bobby. I appreciate that.” The whole tone changed because Bobby made that Senator feel seen and appreciated. He leaned in a little more towards us. That was Bobby just using his hospitality skills in a different venue.

Kirk Bachmann: Brilliant.

Kevin Boehm: That’s one example. Another example of a big box chain doing it is Ruth’s Chris [00:23:20]. Their big hospitality thing for VIPs was, “We’re going to have an off-the-menu item that only VIPs can get.” Which was so much better than giving them a free dessert. No one else can get this. Scarcity sells being seen like nothing else.

Making people feel seen is a skill set. It’s surgical. It’s, to quote one of the old school books – you brought up Danny before – I think Danny’s book brought up, “Let’s seat the people from Minneapolis with our server who grew up in Minneapolis because then they can feel connected, and they can feel seen.” “Oh, yeah, we sat you with Joni because she’s also from Minneapolis.” Boom! All of a sudden, you’re like, “Wow!” It’s a Jedi mind trick, too, because people think if you’re paying attention to details, then you’re paying attention to everything.

The same thing in reverse is, I went to a restaurant years ago with a friend. The hostess when we walked up was reading the newspaper, so she couldn’t see us. I went, “Shhh.” I set my stopwatch. I just wanted to see how long. I finally cleared my throat, and she put it down. As we were being walked to the table, I go, “This is going to be a terrible meal.” I just knew it. The manager’s letting her get away with having a newspaper and sit behind the host stand. What else is going to go on?

Being seen and not being seen will make the food taste worse even if it doesn’t taste worse.

Service to Others – And Ourselves

Kirk Bachmann: Even if it’s not eighty-six degrees. I totally, totally agree.

Will Guidara wrote something beautiful about your book. He said, “There’s nobility in hospitality, unbelievable power in pouring yourself into the restoration of others.” But that your story shows, again in quotes, “How sometimes answering the call to serve is the best way to restore ourselves.” Talk to me about that, Kevin. How has serving others created these experiences – caring for guests, seeing guests, employees – been healing for you personally?

Kevin Boehm: Somebody not that long ago said to me, “When in doubt, when really depressed, do something nice for someone else.” My girlfriend and I started doing something not that long ago that we would do a daily recap of the day. We would write down: here’s what good happened today; here’s what bad happened today; here’s what I learned today; here’s my service of others for the day; and was the day a win or a loss. What we found was if it got late in the day and you hadn’t done anything for the service of others, just out of sheer embarrassment that you didn’t want to get to the next day and say, “Oh crap, I forgot to do something,” you would do it. Those things usually fed you. Those usually became the better parts of your day, and also became the reason that the day would be a win a lot of times.

When you get to Christmas Day when you’re a kid, pre-Christmas you get excited about the gifts. But if you got a really great gift for someone, that day of, your excitement is giving that gift.

A Legacy of Enriching Mental Health

Kirk Bachmann: That’s beautiful. So much wisdom in everything that you share.

You’ve been in this business for a long time, over three decades. You’ve been named one of Rob Reports 50 Most Powerful People in American Dining. James Beard Award, Best Restaurant in America. That’s a heck of a legacy, but I’m curious. What does legacy mean to you? I think I know what you’re going to say. At this stage in your career, what do you want to be remembered for beyond the restaurants, beyond the stars, beyond the accolades, beyond everything that you do when you throw a party every single night?

Kevin Boehm: A couple of things. One, did you leave the world a better place than whence you came? I have it on the notes section of my phone all the people in this life that I know that I love and that I know love me. That’s a big legacy. How those people have enriched me and how I’ve enriched them.

Obviously, I have three children that I hope can learn from my mistakes and also build on the things that I started working on in my life. That can just be ethos or kindness or hospitality in their own lives, not necessarily in the profession.

In the book, it was really important to me to talk about mental health because even though it’s better than the generation before me, which was sadly repressed about mental health, it still seems like I know so many people who go to the gym six days a week, but they’re like, “I’m not going to see a therapist.” How has this not become a regular thing that at some point in your life to have a relationship with a therapist? Because that relationship is like no other relationship in your life. It’s a relationship that you’re not going in to be liked; you’re going in to be understood. The only key to that relationship is be honest. I think that’s my big message here in the next decade, fifteen years of my life. Have that relationship at least once in your life, and break some of the patterns that have maybe broken you.

I went fifty years and was not a happy person. I had a lot of manic and joyful moments. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not asking anybody to feel sorry for me. But sustained happiness…it was just very difficult for me. And now as a very happy person, I never could have gotten there without me throwing the kitchen sink at it, which was a lot of different things. It was the Hoffman Institute, and it was ayahuasca and it was a really talented therapist. It was getting medicated.

I hope people just don’t think, “This is my lot in life.” And then they hit rock bottom and they don’t survive it. Because if there’s one theme to the book, it’s probably that rock bottom is a gift, but only if you can survive it, so don’t risk it. I was able to come back from it. When I came back, it was a gift because I was able to sit in that room and say, “Well, if the alternative is death, here’s all the things I’m going to do and throw at my life and give it a shot to really find happiness.” Now, I feel obliged to share that with others because I got through it. Because there are sure a lot of people that didn’t, and I know several of them. Four friends in my life who have taken their own lives. I go back all the time and look at my final messages with them. I wish I’d had a moment with them.

Rules for Life

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah.

Kevin, to take this conversation a little further, you mention that you now live by three rules: Do I have a purpose? Is it not vengeful? And do I like myself within this journey? Can you share a little bit of that, and when did that come to you?

Kevin Boehm: You know, it’s funny. When I became happy. My therapist said, “Get a new journal. When you have one of your really rough days, dark days, I want you to write down on the left side exactly how you feel. Then, when you have these great days, these manic days, I want you to write how you feel so you have perspective on both.”

Kirk Bachmann: It was brilliant.

Kevin Boehm: It’s a beautiful exercise. I always have perspective on no matter what side I was feeling. Then one day, I really thought about it. “What is it about my life now that’s different?” I always had purpose, but a lot of times my purpose was to show up Larry and to say, Look, I’m not a loser. Then, there were points in time where I was working in environments where the people that I loved I didn’t see enough. I wasn’t always working with people that I enjoyed. Three, I didn’t like my place in the story, man. A lot of times, I felt like I was short-changing each of my relationships in my life because I didn’t get to spend enough time with any of them. I was doing all three wrong.

Once I corrected that, I was like, “Okay. This is how life works for me.” That’s not necessarily the recipe for everybody, but if you can do those three things – purpose with the right reason, do I like my place as the protagonist in the story, and do I run into the people that I like, love and respect along the way – it’s a pretty good plan.

Be Comfortable with the Process

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah.

Dave Eggers wrote, “The starry-eyed guy I met in college who taught himself how to live and build while working through some of the most confusing elements of his own origins.” Looking back at that starry-eyed ten-year-old selling tomatoes in his driveway and told his mom he wanted to open up a restaurant some day versus who you are today, Kevin, what would you tell your younger self? What do you know now that you wish you’d known then?

Kevin Boehm: I was tremendously insecure and scared in so many ways. I would have told myself, “Hey man. There is no finish line. It’s all process. Enjoy this little moment now. Keep going like you are. Don’t lose this child-like enthusiasm. The worst thing that can happen to you is cynicism and apathy. Otherwise, everything will work out, man.” And, I’d be like, “And get a therapist. And if the first one sucks, go to the next one.”

In the book, I did go to one when I was twenty-six years old. I did an eval. I did a ninety minute eval.

Kirk Bachmann: I think the most powerful – I wrote it down. We try to help students through challenges in their lives. Some are momentary, some are longer than that. You said, “Don’t go to therapy to be liked; go to be understood. But more than anything, be honest.” Don’t just go to therapy to tell your family that you did. Be honest. That’s got to be the toughest part.

Kevin Boehm: It does. Because let’s say there’s a lot of trauma and shame and guilt and pain, and you go in that first day. You don’t normally do this with people. You don’t go, “Let me tell you all the terrible things about me. Let me tell you my deepest, darkest secrets, and let me tell you my deepest, darkest fears.” That’s not how we’re built.

At the very beginning when I first started seeing my therapist, I was seeing her several days a week. It was a slow leak of information. Some of it took three or four weeks because I had to feel comfortable enough.

Restaurants: Great Concepts, Start Small

Kirk Bachmann: Sure.

As you look ahead to what’s next for you and the restaurant group, are there other projects brewing? New concepts that you’re excited about? New cities? You’ve written a book; are you thinking about another one? A movie?

Kevin Boehm: First of all with the restaurants, we’re doing a restaurant with Brian Lockwood called Gingie. He’s a good Boulder kid. Used to be the chef at Frasca. He was the chef de cuisine at Eleven Madison Park when they were the number one restaurant in the world. We’re doing a restaurant with him called Gingie in Chicago in the old GT Prime space that we’re really excited about. Then, we’re opening three restaurants in Nashville – actually two restaurants and a bar. We’re doing Alla Vida and Momotaro, and we’re opening a bar called Middle Men in Nashville. In the short term, that’s what’s on deck next.

Kirk Bachmann: Paris.

Kevin Boehm: And we’re doing Cherry Creek soon after that. Nothing in Paris. I’m happy to be a tourist.

Kirk Bachmann: Cherry Creek here, Colorado?

Kevin Boehm: Yeah, Cherry Creek in Colorado.

Kirk Bachmann: Really! That’s exciting. That’s really, really, really exciting.

For culinary students and enthusiasts and aspiring restaurateurs, I always say this to everyone. I don’t for one minute take for granted the years, the work. Sometimes this cliché of “focus on this and do this.” I mean it with all due respect. People always need to know the work that went into it. There’s so much. There are so many sleepless nights and all of that. But as someone who’s just starting their journey, per some things that we’ve shared today, and they are possibly carrying their own struggles or dreams. Is there one piece of advice that you would give someone today? Today. Clean slate. Clean palette. Beautiful canvas. What’s the biggest piece of advice for entering the industry today?

Kevin Boehm: I would say, one, that ideation and building the concept of what you’re going to do is just as fun as doing it. Don’t rush it. Specificity is more important than it’s ever been because the baseline of what people can get as a meal these days, whether it be by delivery or quick service or whatever, is better than it’s ever been. We’re better cooks because of the Food Network. We can get better product. So, what is special about your place? You’re not going to come up with that in a day. Build the day. See it inside your head.

Then, when you do get to this business plan pro forma level, you don’t need to shoot “Avatar” for your first movie. Your first movie needs to be “Brothers McMillan” or “The Blair Witch Project.”

Kirk Bachmann: I was just going to say “Blair Witch Project.”

Kevin Boehm: It can be a handheld camera, man. It can be a great film. Do something in the beginning that’s small and manageable. Pore over every plate and make your heart and soul be just as important as the plates and décor and all those things. It’s okay for it to be modest. My first two restaurants, as I’ve said many, many times, were stuck together with bubble gum and scotch tape – and they sure were. You tried to punch anything in those first two restaurants, your fist was going to go right through it. It was like a movie set.

Kevin Boehm’s Ultimate Dish for Tonight

Kirk Bachmann: Oh my gosh! I love it. I love it.

I want to be so respectful of your time. You guys are going out to dinner in a bit. I was laughing so much. This morning, I went back and listened to a little bit of our last chat. The final question is always, “What’s the ultimate dish?” You told the most beautiful story about Ruth – Ruth Reichl and “the woman next to me is moaning,” and how much that meant to you. When she dined in your restaurant, her final words to you were, “Kevin, this time I’m moaning.” I don’t know if this is rated R, but I love the story. I love, I love, I love the story.

You also said that emotional moments can happen with a meal. Emotional moments that can happen with a meal. Emotional moments that can happen with a meal. As a backdrop: you’re in Paris. I don’t know where you’re going tonight, but what’s the ultimate dish? What’s the ultimate dish that you’re looking forward to? We’ll do it that way.

Kevin Boehm: You know what, this is one of those – I’ve never done this before where I’ve let somebody else do all the planning. My girlfriend is very worldly, and she graduated from culinary school herself.

Kirk Bachmann: Congratulations.

Kevin Boehm: All I know is I’m going to Omakase tonight.

Kirk Bachmann: No way!

Kevin Boehm: That’s my favorite. We had this great meal at the Hotel Cheval Blanc the other night here. LVMH opened up a hotel here in Paris. It was beautiful. We had a great meal there. So I’m with the girl I love. I’m going to be eating at Omakase. I think that’s going to be a pretty emotional moment. I think that’s pretty good.

Kirk Bachmann: I think that pushes Ruth to silver medal on the podium.

Kevin Boehm: Yes.

Kirk Bachmann: I think she’ll understand. I think she’ll understand.

Kevin, thank you. First of all, happy holidays. Happy New Year. Thank you so much. Congratulations on the book. We sent you some notes for possibly seeing you in Boulder. We’ll do anything you want to do. I just so enjoy you.

Kevin Boehm: Thanks. Anytime.

Kirk Bachmann: I love it. I love it. Enjoy Paris. How long are you there? Are you there for the whole…?

Kevin Boehm: We leave tomorrow morning. Go back in tomorrow morning.

Kirk Bachmann: Okay. Enjoy. Thank you [for bearing with us.]

Kevin Boehm: Anybody who wants information on the book, TheBottomlessCupBook.com not only has a link to the book, but it also has a little mini-film on there, a companion piece to the book, like a little movie trailer.

Kirk Bachmann: That’s wonderful. Well, ten-thousand students are going to get that link today. Noelle will work her magic on the podcast. Thank you so much. You guys enjoy.

Kevin Boehm: Thanks.

Kirk Bachmann: Cheers.

Thank you for listening to the Ultimate Dish podcast, brought to you by Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts. Visit escoffier.edu/podcast to find any materials mentioned during the podcast, including notes, links and other resources. And if you can, please leave us a rating on Apple or Spotify, and subscribe to support our show. This helps us reach more aspiring individuals ready to take the next step toward their dream careers. Thanks for listening.