U.S. Barista Champion Morgan Eckroth: Why You Don’t Need to Be Perfect to Start

TRANSCRIPT

Kirk Bachmann: Hello, everyone. My name is Kirk Bachmann, and welcome back to the Ultimate Dish. Today’s episode is a first for us. In all our conversations with chefs, restaurateurs, culinary creators, we have never sat down with a professional barista until now, until today. Please welcome the internet’s friendly barista, Morgan Eckroth. If you have spent any time whatsoever on TikTok or Instagram learning about coffee, you almost certainly know Morgan. Under the handle @MorganDrinksCoffee, they’ve built a community of nearly 8 million followers across platforms, including 6.1 million on TikTok alone. My goodness. Sharing coffee tutorials, inventive drink recipes, and barista stories with a warmth that has made them one of the most beloved voices in specialty coffee. But Morgan is far more than a creator. Raised in Corvallis, Oregon, more on that in a minute, and homeschooled along with their brother, Morgan took a job at a local coffee shop as a freshman at Oregon State University. Go Beavs! And fell in love with coffee. That love turned into something remarkable. After several seasons of hard-learned lessons in barista competition, Morgan became the 2022 U.S. Barista Champion, went on to finish as the World Barista Runner-Up, and is a two-time U.S. Barista Runner-Up. And now, Morgan, this is a lot, right? And Morgan is adding published author to the list. Their debut book, Coffee, for Here: The Ultimate Handbook for At-Home Coffee Enthusiasts, hits shelves October 27th. Order yours. I’ve ordered mine. We’re going to talk about it all today. Morgan, welcome to the Ultimate Dish. How are you?

Morgan Eckroth: Thank you so much for having me. I’m doing great. Glad to be here.

Kirk Bachmann: I’m so glad that you are here, and everyone’s gonna know really quickly how freaking excited I am because you are in Portland, Oregon. Yay! Let’s go. Let’s go. We were laughing earlier because my daughter graduated from Oregon State. So did her husband. And at some point, you probably walked around campus and saw a mural of her, probably at the bookstore. She’s going to be mortified when she hears this. She’s going to be mortified.

Morgan Eckroth: This is your job as a dad. Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

Kirk Bachmann: Yes, it is. Yes, it is. But Corvallis, so beautiful. Love Corvallis. But more than anything, this is not about OSU. This is about you, and it is really a treat to have you. And you are the first professional barista in 156 episodes over six years that we’ve ever welcomed to the show. So this is special. I have a latte from a local star here in Boulder with me here, and I suspect that a lot of our coffee-loving listeners will absolutely love this. But I’m going down a rabbit hole right off the bat. I watch the you, I and you’re in your studio, right? I should set that up right. Absolutely amazing! I love it. I love it.

Morgan Eckroth: Thank you.

Kirk Bachmann: Do you know? Do you live there too? Do you live at work? Work at live?

Morgan Eckroth: My husband would probably say that I do. This studio is a space I built out over the last two years after previously doing everything at home, and it definitely. I mean, if I panned the camera around, you would see just how many espresso machines and brewers are surrounding me, and it got to the point where my kitchen was more coffee shop than anything else, and that was the breaking point of, oh gosh, I should probably build out an actual space for this.

Milk-Brewed Coffee & The Science of Extraction

Kirk Bachmann: I love it, you know. On some of the reels that I’ve seen, I’ve been counting up the machines, and I’m like, wow, this is a costly. This many, you know, it’s funny. I also have like a studio in the city when I need to go think and stuff. It doesn’t look like that, though. I just want to say it does not look like that. But watch this video on how to make milk-brewed coffee at home, where instead of the water, you brew the coffee directly into the milk. I mean, I’ve been around kitchens my entire life. I was fascinated. For everyone who hasn’t seen that, now they will. What on earth is milk-brewed coffee, and how did you dream that up?

Morgan Eckroth: Yeah, milk-brewed coffee is a super fun method of extraction that results in something that is not dissimilar to a latte. There are some like differences in flavor intensity of doing a milk brew versus adding espresso directly to milk. But as much as I wish I could take full credit for it, this is something I actually discovered through a really renowned café in Japan, Koffee Mameya. They are a wonderful, like very high-end, like almost omakase-style coffee service, and one of their courses is a milk-brewed coffee course, and so I stumbled into this method of extraction through them, and then have really enjoyed being able to share it. But essentially, you take the principles of cold brewing, because milk, of course, is not a very good solvent for extracting coffee, so it’s a process that happens at a cool temperature. Similar to cold brew, you put it in your fridge for 10 to 12 hours. You get different results depending on how long you have it in there. But you then filter out those coffee grounds, and you basically have pre-batched latte without the need for any espresso machine. So I love it for folks who don’t have it because it’s a way for them to experience that without having to go down the equipment rabbit hole.

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah, I love that. You know, as I listen to you talk about it, I kind of hear you as almost like a pastry chef. Did you ever think about going to culinary school?

Morgan Eckroth: My very first job I ever had was in a kitchen. My love is definitely back of house, and if I ever went back to the restaurant world, it would be back of house before front of house,

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah, back of house, yeah.

Morgan Eckroth: But definitely, a lot of my background comes from the world of culinary.

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah, yeah, because in many ways, when we talk about pastry, we talk about it sort of being a science, kind of an exact science. Is there a lot of room for error when you’re creating some of your amazing concoctions?

Morgan Eckroth: Coffee is one of those interesting things because I think there is. I think it’s a very even split of whether you want to approach it as a science or more of a brew by feel. I tend to use the word like artistry. I don’t know if that’s exactly the right word, but there’s this approach where it’s just a very human thing that you’re making versus the very rigorous, like specific brewing styles that especially competitors engage in. And there is definitely, I think, a lot of room for error in brewing coffee. I think there are a lot of foundationals in like extraction principles and the science of like how coffee is created, how it interacts with water, like all of these things can be learned. But I think once you build that foundation, I think that’s where you just become free to then play and do whatever you want. And once you get to that point, I think that room for error really decreases because at that point you should have a good result no matter what. It’s about tailoring it to what you prefer.

Kirk Bachmann: Noelle is probably cringing right now because I’m going way off script. I’m just fascinated by this. Do you find that people today, because coffee has increased in popularity certainly over the last couple of decades, especially beautiful coffee and lattes and cappuccinos and just different extractions, to use your term, is the consumer a little bit more knowledgeable? So, that room for error, does the consumer know it today? Or I wouldn’t, but…

Morgan Eckroth: I think there is a lot more knowledge nowadays than there ever has been before, which for me is super exciting because it just means you can take people so much deeper into. I’ve worked in coffee for close to 10 years now, and there was, I think, a really dramatic turning point about five, six years ago, especially around COVID, where, you know, the closure of so many coffee shops forced people who still wanted to have that excellent coffee. It forced them to learn how to do it at home, and I think there’s been this huge push, probably since the 2000s, like the birth of the third wave coffee movement, to really like educate the consumer on just what goes into coffee. But I think there was like a mass acceleration of that during COVID as well, which has led to some really cool results now on the other side.

Kirk Bachmann: No, I love it. I’m so glad. I’m so off script today. Did you find yourself a decade ago really diving deep into the history of coffee as well? Because it’s been around for so long, right?

Morgan Eckroth: It has. I think I’ve always been like hungry for the history of it, and I mean to this day, there’s so much I don’t know, which is what I always love about coffee. There’s always a new rabbit hole you can dive down. There’s like no matter how good you get at one thing, there’s always another segment that you can learn. But definitely, when I was younger and starting as a barista, you know, I would like check out all of the coffee books from the library I could find, like getting onto YouTube, just digging through like the dredges of barista championships, like trying to absorb as much of it as possible.

Kirk Bachmann: I just love it. Speaking of rabbit holes, I have a quick one before we go any deeper. And I should have asked this right away. It’s early on the West Coast. We’re recording, and be honest with me. What was in your cup this morning? What does the friendly internet barista actually drink to start the day?

Morgan Eckroth: That is a great question. I’ve actually got a cup of coffee next to me. This is my first cup of the day, so hopefully by the end of this, I will have made it through it. But I’m like a pour-over person every morning. I just brew like a V60 pour-over right now. We were in Hong Kong a couple of weeks ago for a coffee event, and so I have a coffee from a roaster out there that I brought back, and it’s delicious and floral and all the delicious things.

Kirk Bachmann: What’s a V60 pour-over?

Morgan Eckroth: Yeah, so a V60 is a type of brewer by a company called Hario. It is what’s known as a conical brewer, so it uses conical-shaped filters, and typically there are two main types of brewers. There’s flat-bottom and then conical, and those shape definitions talk about what shape the coffee bed takes on once it’s in the brewer. So conical brewers, I really like using. They tend to highlight a little bit more flavor clarity in your cup. You can achieve a little bit more juicy acidity out of coffees than some flat brewers. That’s my go-to every day.

Coffee, for Here: Writing the Book

Kirk Bachmann: Oh God, I love it. I want to start a program like tomorrow on barista knowledge, the academics around it, the juicy. That terminology around a coffee bean is just not common, right? It’s really, really exciting. Let’s talk about the book for a minute because that’s super exciting. The only thing I was disappointed about is when I went to go buy it, it’s like it’s not ready till next week. I’m like, I want to see. I bet you’re going crazy. Yeah. Oh my gosh. So October 27th. I absolutely love it’s described as both a practical handbook. I love that, right? It’s going to get dirty on the counter. And a guide to building real coffee at home, if you will. So, one, congratulations on becoming an author. That’s amazing, and it looks like you’re going to, I saw this on the website, you’re going to tour very soon. That’s beyond exciting. So let’s start with that big picture. Who did you write the book for, Morgan? And what did you most want someone to feel when they put it down or pick it up?

Morgan Eckroth: Yeah, definitely. When I first kind of started ideating through this book, the question of who is this for was really top of mind because, you know, with coffee you can go so technical so fast. You can also like look at it at kind of like just a surface level, which is also great. And I really wanted to like figure out how I could combine those two things, where even if you have never made coffee before, hopefully by reading the book front to back, you leave with a much deeper understanding of not only brewing but like what coffee is. And so I really kind of honed in on wanting this to be for a home brewer that either maybe they just bought their first espresso machine or maybe they’re thinking about purchasing one, and they really want to learn how to make drinks at home. Additionally, one of the things that for me was really important within this book was that it didn’t make like a judgment call about how you take your coffee. I’m someone who, I love black coffee, espresso. You know, I’m so far down that side.

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah, yeah.

Morgan Eckroth: But there’s also this like wonderful world of like signature beverages, and I love a fun little latte, you know, like that is also a very real part. And so I wanted this book to kind of thread that needle of being for both of those groups of coffee drinkers, and really the goal of it, even if you never make a single recipe in here, even if you never end up brewing coffee at home for yourself, is that you can read it front to back, enjoy the reading process, and walk away just a little bit more curious about coffee, which is something I think a lot of us, and myself too at times, like take for granted, like the access we have to it. So just wanting to be a little bit more intentional about how we consume it is the goal.

Kirk Bachmann: I love the word intentional. I’m super excited. I can’t wait for the movie to come out. By the way, what I love is that it goes bean to cup. All right, origins, flavor. It’s educational, how coffee is grown, how it’s roasted, and then walks the reader through, like you said, every major brewing method, the pour-over, the French press, AeroPress, the Moka pot, which is my favorite, by the way, cold brew, espresso. When I think about it, Morgan, it’s a lot, right? It’s a lot to teach on the page, or the pages. How did you decide what a true novice or a true at-home enthusiast actually needs to know versus what might be, wow, that’s a little overwhelming? Yeah.

Morgan Eckroth: Completely. This was a big, I don’t want to say struggle, that’s not the right word, but it was the challenge of this book. There are, as you just listed off, so many different ways to brew coffee, like so much equipment that is tailored to brew coffee, and like each of these pieces of equipment, they make a different result. They require like different pieces of knowledge. Like there’s just so much that it’s hard to like paint coffee with a broad brush. And so, for me, I went the route of really wanting to say, if you make coffee at home, hopefully there is at least one brewer in here that you have. There are 10 different brewers in here, not counting espresso, and I don’t expect everyone to have all of them. But maybe you have a pour-over device, or maybe you have a Moka pot, or maybe you make cold brew. And so, if you step into this book, there will be instructions and guides to your brewer, and then also signature beverages for your brewer. And also, one of the goals of kind of like walking people through this process from the simple to the technical was kind of the way we structured it. Like it was really important for me that all of the like agriculture, all of the history, like all of that sits at the front. The next chapter is really talking about just like overall extraction principles. Like, what’s your water temperature? Like, defining extraction. Like, that’s kind of a weird word that we don’t usually like hear around coffee, just in our everyday. But we use it a lot in the industry, and so defining what it means to extract coffee, what it means to have it over- or under-extracted, and really talking about all of that prior to ever doing a single recipe or brewing. I think if you get through those first two chapters, I think it sets you up with a really great foundation, that even if you’re a total novice, you can walk into the brewing and the drink chapters feeling like you at least understand some of the terminology and can start connecting those pieces.

Kirk Bachmann: I think our industry, I think the chef world will just absolutely love it. Words like extraction just get the party started, right? I mean, whether you’re making a soup or a sauce or something like that, the industry can really, really relate to it. There’s a part that you built into the book that is really special, and I’m going to tell you, again off script, a little story. My father is turning 90 at the end of this month, so this coming weekend we’re doing, you know, a big party. Everyone’s flying in, even Mike Kirsten from Oregon State, everybody’s flying in, and I wanted to do something kind of really different and innovative. I wanted to extract a part of his life, right, from the ’30s, the ’40s, the ’50s in Europe and coming over to America. So I worked with some amazing people in Europe on sort of an AI project, so we created what I call a graphic novel. Think Norman Rockwell writes, that kind of vibe, but we also included a QR code. So what we created as a read has kind of been turned into a little movie, which you can access. Yeah, it’s, I get teary-eyed just thinking about it. And I just think that the world is ready for this sort of celebration of memories and knowledge. It used to be if the photos weren’t in the photo album, you didn’t look at it, right? So there’s so many different ways. So you were wise enough to put these QR codes that link video tutorials, you know, to the reader. I just think people are kinesthetic by nature, and they can read, but show me, and I will be able to do it. How did your background making short, and I’m going to say approachable, videos shape the way that you taught coffee in a physical book? How did you blend both of those things? How did you do this before I did?

Morgan Eckroth: Well, the QR codes and the video, like the incorporation of that media into it, was something that kind of came later. That was not initially part of the book in any way, shape, or form. But actually, it was when I had sent all of my drink recipes off to my recipe testers to do recipe testing that one of them came back to me, and she was like, “Have you thought about putting some guides in for some of these things?” She was like, “I make coffee. I feel like familiar with a lot of this, but you know, I showed it to like my partner, and they had some questions that, like, even though the text was there, like it didn’t all fully place.” And I very much related to that as someone who is also like a very visual learner. You know, like video for me, I’m like, just let me watch it, and I got it.

Kirk Bachmann: You got it. Yeah, yeah.

Morgan Eckroth: And so that’s what really sparked the idea of like, oh, we could maybe like incorporate video, and it really started to develop, especially when I started thinking about like the brewing activity. Like all these different brewers ideally utilize different grind sizes of coffee, and typically when we are describing grind size, we use words like medium or medium-coarse or fine. And in my brain, I have like a point of reference for what that is, but like that doesn’t mean anything to any.

Kirk Bachmann: It’s a fine line, yeah.

Morgan Eckroth: Yeah, you know, your medium is probably not my medium. Like it’s a very like nebulous, like not very helpful descriptor. And so for me, I also wanted to include those videos just as like, even though I can’t maybe write out exactly the micron distribution of the grind size you need, you can look at it in a video and have like a really nice visual guide to take with you, and so that was the development of those being incorporated. And for me, I hope at least they’ll be really helpful for people because that sort of like teaching online through video is so second nature that it just felt like such an automatic inclusion the minute someone brought it up to me.

Shakeratos, Frappuccinos & Recipe Testing

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah, no, absolutely brilliant. I’d have to say though, Morgan, I think my favorite part, and I can picture myself there, the 40 or so café-style recipes, “In Nibs We Trust,” quote unquote. You know, I think of myself, I love Europe, and I love the things that go on in Europe, from food to cycling. So when I think of a café, I think of being in the south of France and parking my bike outside, and, you know, walking in my cycling clothing, or being in the mountains of Italy and that sort of vibe. For a listener who wants to feel like a barista in their own kitchen, in their own space, what’s the one recipe? This is a really unfair question. Tough question.

Morgan Eckroth: You’re asking me to choose a favorite child.

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah. What’s the recipe or the go-to technique from the book, before it’s out, that you would encourage someone to start with? Maybe not an advanced one.

Morgan Eckroth: Totally. Yeah. Oh gosh, there’s so many drinks in there that I love. One of the most classic, and to this day one of my favorite drinks I’ve included in the book, just because of how like simple it is. And this actually ties really nicely into France and Italy and this idea of like biking through Europe, is the espresso shakerato. It’s a very traditional, like Italian coffee drink. It is just freshly pulled espresso, a little bit of sugar, and then it’s like very, very thoroughly shaken and agitated in a cocktail shaker. So you end up with something like frothy and chilled and sweet and foamy, and it’s just two ingredients. You know, you can dress it up a little bit if you want, but it is such a wonderful demonstration of like, if you take simple ingredients that are of quality, like put a little bit of attention into them, you can end up with something like so much greater than the fundamental parts.

Kirk Bachmann: Just like with food, just like with food.

Morgan Eckroth: Completely.

Kirk Bachmann: Another thing I’m just thinking about, you know, growing up in a European home, coffee was very important, right? Every morning, and it was always fascinating to me. Black coffee with, sometimes it felt like my parents put more cream or milk into the coffee cup than there was coffee, right? It had this kind of light brown sort of appearance, and that coffee would sit in that cup for God knows how long, and you know, it wasn’t hot anymore, and so you’ve got that vibe. And then you go into a little Italian café, or sometimes I go into Boxcar here, and I’ll just have an espresso with, they like to serve it with a little shot of sparkling water, and I’m gone, right? But in Italy, people might sit at that bar for an hour, sipping on that one espresso, having conversation. How did we get to, you know, without calling anyone out, you know, like even my youngest daughter. I mean, the drinks that they order, the Frappuccino with sprinkles and whipped cream, and I need two straws. And how do you discern that phenomena? I mean, that’s a lot of coffee.

Morgan Eckroth: Yeah, yeah, completely. It’s very interesting because I spent a lot of time in the last couple years, especially like doing a lot of travel. I’ve, you know, I’ve spent a lot of time in like Italy in that like very, very traditional espresso culture. Traveled a bit in Asia now, like just South America, and it’s so interesting because I think the U.S. especially has like a very unique coffee culture comparatively to a lot of other countries, and none of it’s good or bad. You know, it’s all just different, but like we very much, our coffee culture runs on customizable drinks. Yeah, you can have it whatever shape you want, whatever temperature you want. You can change it however you want, and so I think that has, you know, in a lot of ways let people enter the coffee world because, you know, they can taste coffee. They still have the sugar that makes it like palatable, and like I think ideally, even if you start there, the goal is that you kind of work your way maybe towards black coffee, or just maybe you just explore it a little bit more. But out of all of those like crazy Frappuccinos, like all the wild like lattes, all of that, I think has also kind of birthed a really interesting culture around just coffee signature beverages, and especially ones that are approached, I’ll use this word again, with like a little bit more intention, of like, how do we make a beverage that is interesting, creative, more akin to a cocktail, but still features coffee in a way that showcases it rather than hides it? And so I always, you could find me with a Frappuccino. Like there, like there’s

Kirk Bachmann: Really? Really?

Morgan Eckroth: I think it’s such an interesting thing to see how people utilize coffee, and you won’t find me with one very often, but like I think there’s this interesting like evolution of like a Frappuccino being a version of a signature beverage, but then you also have, you know, the shakerato, which I would also call a signature beverage. They both live in the same like large nebulous category that is fun to work in.

Kirk Bachmann: I love that name, by the way. I’d giggle ordering it. I would totally giggle. On that note, coming back to that, how do you know when a recipe is actually finished and ready to share, right? Versus, you know, it’s not quite there. Same like with a plate with a chef, right? They may try that dish 1,000 times and it may never make it to the menu. What does that testing and, I don’t know, refining process look like behind the scenes? I would be so impatient. Like, shakerato’s ready, shakerato’s ready. Let’s go, let’s go.

Morgan Eckroth: It’s done. I wish I could. I don’t know if I’ve ever felt like a drink is entirely complete, which sometimes was an interesting process to go through, especially with this book, because I share a lot of recipes online, and there’s kind of like an ephemeral, like temporary quality to that. Like things could be updated. Like all of that’s a little bit more flexible. With the book, I was like, these drinks, I developed these drinks like two years ago into the manuscript, and the minute we sent this to print, like that was it. There was no more tinkering with them, and so it was a very interesting process to kind of face the feeling that I often have of like, this drink will never be done. It can always be improved, and really have to say no, there has to be a hard stop on this. One of the things that was super helpful in like expediting that process for me was this cookbook was one of the first times I’ve worked pretty extensively with recipe testers, of sending off these recipes to be just made in kitchens, made in cafés, and just like tested for their efficacy. And that was a really helpful process because it was no longer me like ripping out my hair and saying like, how could this be slightly improved? What negligible ingredient could I add to make it slightly better? I was able to like actually have additional people saying, “Hey, this is either really good, everything worked as it should,” or “Hey, this tasted a little bit out of balance. This is like the area that I could see improvement in.” And having that like roadmap for recipes was really helpful in a way that I just hadn’t experienced before.

From College Barista to the Friendly Internet Barista

Kirk Bachmann: The more we chat, I’m listening, and the word that just keeps popping into my mind, and I need to get you in front of students as an adjunct instructor. I’m gonna do it.

Morgan Eckroth: You just let me know.

Kirk Bachmann: Entrepreneurship. What you’re doing, Morgan, feels so entrepreneurial. I mean, there’s a business behind it, right? There’s a plan behind it, and the coffee itself and the recipes is just one part of the bigger picture, right? And that’s a perfect segue into maybe rewinding a little bit, because your path to nearly 8 million, I can’t even imagine 8 million.

Morgan Eckroth: Either can I, frankly.

Kirk Bachmann: I mean, think about that. Think about how many people are getting informed. It’s fascinating. It’s absolutely fascinating. And to be honest, I think our students, we have an entrepreneurship program at Escoffier, and it has a component of social media, but to be able to hear from someone who’s made that creative platform a reality, it’s really remarkable. Can you take us back a little bit to, let’s say, the beginning? You were a freshman at Oregon State, Go Beavs, working your first barista job. How did that become short comedy videos about café life on TikTok, and why didn’t I come up with that?

Morgan Eckroth: I think so much of social media, you know, there is definitely skill involved, but also I think a huge element of it is right place, right time. Like there is just this element of luck that is so hard to anticipate or ever know if it’s going to strike. Back in 2019, I had been working as a barista for about like two years. I was finishing up my junior year of college. You know, I’d been doing a little bit on the competition side. Like I knew coffee was something that I wanted to do, hopefully, as a career. I was getting my marketing degree at the time, and so in my mind, I was hoping to work on the marketing team for like a larger coffee company or roastery. Like that was the goal. I’d been doing a lot of photography, and pretty clearly, it felt like around that time, like video was where everything was going, and that’s not something I had a lot of experience with. So when I started making just videos on TikTok, like it was truly not out of the place of, this will ever be something I do as a career. Like there was no intention to grow. It was just like, I feel like I need to know how to make videos at least a little bit before, you know, I graduate here in a year and a half. And so I was working a lot. I loved my job, and it just felt very natural to make videos about it. And this is where that like luck aspect comes in, of TikTok and like short-form, like vertical video especially, just was having this moment of growth that was kind of unprecedented. And I think I managed to hit kind of a fine line of like, there was a sense that I liked my job, but also I could be a little irreverent and, you know, a little bit funny about it too.

Kirk Bachmann: We call can, yeah.

Morgan Eckroth: Like there’s always good and bad. And I was like, sometimes we just have silly things happen in service. And I think especially with the audience on there being like a lot of people around my age, there was just this kind of broader sense of like food and beverage and customer service camaraderie that helped propel those videos forward. And very quickly, I kind of had the realization that, oh gosh, I could maybe do this as a job, or at the very least, I need to take this a little bit more seriously than how I was at the beginning, thinking of this just as a hobby. And that was kind of the start of it. It was really just out of necessity, and then COVID, of course, happening about a year, year and a half later, is really what made me focus in, because the café I worked at closed down. You know, I was without a job. I was doing like online schooling, and I was like, the only way I can make money right now is online. But additionally, the only way I can engage with coffee or with service is figuring out how to share it online, and so that’s when Morgan Drinks Coffee kind of became what it is today.

Kirk Bachmann: And it’s absolutely fabulous. You’ve done an amazing job. I want to get into the internet barista, but you reminded me of this. Has nothing to do with our conversation, but I can’t help myself. I’m having so much fun. So years ago, when I was hanging out in Portland, and I had heard of Peet’s Coffee, you know, in the Bay Area and stuff, and I heard that he was actually talking to the folks who started Starbucks and all of that. And then Portland got a Peet’s. It was connected to a Marriott hotel, not far from the Benson Hotel, right, right across the street, and I’ll never forget, Morgan. I was in Seattle for some reason. Starbucks was just starting to find its groove, right, and maybe it was better then. I don’t know. It was fun. Everyone wanted to go to Starbucks, but I’m at the Seattle airport, and it’s the biggest coffee shop I’ve ever been in. I didn’t even know what was going on. There were like 12 baristas. It was they, and we were like 12 deep, right, trying to order our coffee. And they had a few team members that were going out into the deep lines and taking our orders. I don’t even know what came over me, Morgan. And so they came up to me, I think I ordered a latte, and they weren’t really paying attention to you. They were just so busy getting the order. So my person was just facing down and writing things down and said, you know, “What would you like?” And I said, “A latte,” I think. And then they just go, “Name,” and not looking at me at all. I just said, “Brad Pitt,” and so at that moment, that person kind of looked up at me and smiled and giggled because clearly it wasn’t Brad Pitt. And by the time I got close, they shouted “Brad Pitt” for the coffee. The entire place kind of laughed, turned a little bit. Everybody was like, “That’s really clever.” And so to this day, Morgan, when I go to Boxcar, and I know them all,

Morgan Eckroth: Yes..

Kirk Bachmann: My coffee comes out as Brad Pitt. Yeah,

Morgan Eckroth: That’s amazing.

Kirk Bachmann: I’ve rode that joke for way too long, way too long. But

Morgan Eckroth: I love that.

Kirk Bachmann: When you think about branding yourself, your friendly internet barista, you know, so comforting, right? You’ve said something that I love, that coffee, quote, “can be serious or silly or everything in between,” unquote. You’ve also said that we can’t expect everyday consumers to connect with specialty coffee if we assume they already know everything we know. Like to our earlier conversation, was that welcoming, no-gatekeeping, I guess, philosophy intentional, there’s that word, from the start, or something that you had to discover? Just like I had to make it fun to get a fricking coffee from Starbucks back then. Did you discover this as your audience started to grow, and you needed to help educate them?

Morgan Eckroth: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think that is something that came into play, and I realized pretty quickly that that’s how I wanted to approach all of this. But it definitely wasn’t there immediately off the bat. We were talking a little bit earlier about kind of those initial videos. When I first started, they were very humor-based. You know, I think in a lot of ways they like poked fun at being a barista, poked fun at customers. You know, my goal was never to be, you know, spiteful or angry, but like I was like, we’re gonna be a little silly about it. And I think for me, a lot of the shift actually did happen in that 2020 period, where working in hospitality and food and beverage became really, really hard. Like everyone was stressed. We were dealing with like the fact that like everything might shut down every single day. Like there was just a lot of turmoil in all aspects of hospitality. And for me, that’s when I really took a step back and looked at what I was putting out online to what was becoming a pretty large audience, and I really had to ask myself, like, what do I want to represent here, and also like, what will keep me engaged with this? You know, I really had this moment where I was like, there are a lot of days that like suck nowadays, like a lot more than they used to, and I don’t want to lose sight of why I love working in coffee, because I think we’ll get through this. You know, I think there will be like another side at the end of all this. And that was a shift in a lot of the content I was creating, where I started to approach it much more from the lens of like, what do I appreciate in working as a barista? Like, what do I love in coffee? And for me, that was very important, not only for like the creative process, but also just as my audience grew. Of like, I didn’t necessarily myself want to be someone who encouraged like poking fun at the coffee world. For me, I wanted to be a little bit more reverent about it all and let, you know, whoever else wants to do the comedy side take over that for the time being. It was a shift that definitely happened as I realized that, not to play the like Spider-Man line, but it’s like there’s responsibility with an audience. I just wanted to hold that with kind of the weight that it deserved.

The Craft of Content: Entertain, Educate & Just Begin

Kirk Bachmann: You know, along those lines, I was thinking just about consumer education. Have you ever seen that commercial with the actor Paul Rudd, when he walks up to the barista and has this argument about explaining what venti really means versus grande? Versus, oh, you got to look it up. You got to, after we’re done. You got to look it up. It’s clever. It’s funny. He’s a little mean, you know, and direct, right? You know, we know why Starbucks went with venti, 20 ounces and all that, but he, you know, clarified, you know, for the barista what was really happening. So when I think about all of the, let’s call it the craft. I love the word craft, right? We use that word all the time for a craftsperson, right? Whether you’re an HVAC installer or a chef or a barista, the craft of the content itself. I mean, you have an enormous community, 6.1 million on TikTok alone. When you sit down, Morgan, to create, how do you actually conceptualize, I think is the word, the video? What are you trying to, educate, entertain? You’ve touched on it a little bit, a little of both, and then it kind of goes a certain, you know. And where do those ideas even come from, right? Of what you want to put out there. Obviously, it’s working.

Morgan Eckroth: It’s like the creative process is always ever-changing. I think, you know, I’ve been doing this video content now for seven years. That’s so long. Feels like a long time to be on the internet, but there is definitely some level of formula to it, in the fact that I really like to make sure my like pillars for what I’m putting out there are defined. You know, I think for me the things that I like to create are first and foremost like entertaining. Secondarily, they need to be like educational. I want people to walk away with, like even if it’s just a singular factoid, like one new thing they are learning. And then the third being like visually interesting. Making content, especially for the internet, is an ever-changing game where you gotta like play the game a little bit. You have to have the hook. You gotta like do all the things that can sometimes feel like they take away from some of the creative process. And so I always keep those in the back of my mind, but first and foremost, my goal will always be to entertain and then educate. I think the way I view it is very much like I am asking people to care about coffee. I’m asking them to engage with something that, you know, maybe they don’t know a lot about, and I think that, especially from an audience perspective, can feel like an ask. Like I’m asking something of them, and so for me, making sure the things that I create are either visually interesting or entertaining is very important, because that feels like a really key component of that like exchange between me and them. Like if I’m asking them to like put in the effort to care about what I’m talking about, I also want to provide them with like a laugh, with something that is inspiring. Like there just needs to be something that I give to them as well, beyond just the information. And so, no matter what I’m doing, whether it’s like the drinks or gear review or brewing methods, like that is like the principle of, like, it needs to be entertaining and fun to watch, and then it needs to teach them.

Kirk Bachmann: So you said entertain, educate. I’m giving you the new word, and you can run with it. You’re an edutainer. You’re an edutainer.

Morgan Eckroth: Love that.

Kirk Bachmann: Write it down. I only take a small commission. No photos. No photos, please. No photos. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, one thing, Morgan, that I talk to, or I acknowledge, I should say, with all of the guests that come on the show, is this reality that this didn’t happen overnight. That you have worked incredibly hard, and that’s not lost on me, and it shouldn’t be lost on our listeners. It looks beautiful, studio, millions of followers. It’s such hard work, and that’s the lesson for students, that you have to keep trying. You have to keep trying, and you know, you in particular, you know, filmed your videos in the café, as I understand it, after it closed for the night, right? And

Morgan Eckroth: Yeah.

Kirk Bachmann: it’s really important for a student who wants to build a personal brand like that with almost nothing to understand what you learned in those early days, in maybe, call it, scrappy conditions, right? It wasn’t the stylish studio that you have now. Can you talk about that a little bit?

Morgan Eckroth: Yeah, I think for me, the main thing that I really learned, especially in those early days, was just being willing to try things and put things out there before they felt like they were ready. I’ve learned this about myself. I didn’t used to think this, but I’ve discovered that I am a perfectionist in a lot of ways. Like I have the tendency, no matter what it is that I’m making, to just, I call it iterating it out of existence, where you just like keep editing it and editing it.

Kirk Bachmann: I wouldn’t have guessed that. I wouldn’t have guessed that. Yeah,

Morgan Eckroth: The thing just like doesn’t exist anymore, and I like have had to learn, especially in those early days, to be willing to put out things that maybe I don’t feel like they’re fully ready yet. You know, I don’t feel like they’re perfect, but that’s my perspective. And being willing to like just set that aside and say, “I got to put out something today.” You know, I got to like, I spent eight hours making this thing. What a shame it would be if I just like tossed it to the side because I was angry about this like one singular shot that didn’t work out. And I think getting over that hump, and even like kind of anxiety, of just putting yourself out there and putting out things that maybe don’t feel fully ready but will help you get closer to being ready is really important, because, especially when you’re doing creative work, I think like your process will always evolve. The next thing you make, hopefully, will always be better than the last thing. And you got to like start building those like steps of the ladder if you’re going to get to the top. It is definitely not, you know, a straight shot up there. There’s so much work that has to go into it.

Kirk Bachmann: Such good advice. Do you think people need perfection right out of the gate?

Morgan Eckroth: I don’t. I don’t.

Kirk Bachmann: I don’t either. I don’t.

Morgan Eckroth: I think it’s like you don’t learn if what you put out right out of the gate is like perfect, and if you think it’s perfect, how do you then find the drive to push beyond that?

Barista Competition, Craft & Hospitality

Kirk Bachmann: Exactly. Same with a great dish, right? There’s always something, that little bit more, should always be better, yeah, or different, right? Always be different. I’d love to talk a little bit about the competition world, and

Morgan Eckroth: Yeah!

Kirk Bachmann: I should have assumed that there was competition in this space, like there is in wine and food, but I never thought about it. This is where your story really gets beyond impressive, right? When we first started talking, you were deep in the competition, the U.S. Barista Competition this past summer, and for our listeners and our students and our guests who have never seen a, just what, I got anxiety just watching it on social media. I just want you to know, for those who have never seen a barista competition, please paint the picture a little bit, because to set the tone, for a culinary competition, it’s usually against some criteria. But you’re kind of left alone, right? You’re going to be in the kitchen for three hours at the Bocuse d’Or or wherever, and then you’re going to present. But what I saw was presenting and narrating. What, I mean, how does that work? It’s a lot, and how is competition? So, two-part question.

Morgan Eckroth: Yeah,

Kirk Bachmann: What actually happens, and how is it different today than maybe it was a year ago, or is it so new that it’s still evolving?

Morgan Eckroth: Sure. Yeah. So the Barista Championship is a very fun niche world of the coffee industry. For like larger context for anyone listening, it is a sanctioned competition that is put on by the Specialty Coffee Association. There are around 50 to 55 countries around the world that have this same competition, and it all leads up then to the World Barista Championship, which actually for 2026 is happening next week, which is really fun. But essentially, the format for this competition is, you as a competitor, you have 15 minutes on stage to serve a panel of judges. You have four sensory judges who will be doing all the tasting of your drinks, and then you also have technical judges who are hovering around you, watching your workflow and your technicality and your consistency while you’re doing this presentation. It is a presentation, so you have a thesis. It’s a TED talk. That’s like the nice way of saying it. It is a TED talk about the coffee you have specifically chosen to serve, and you are required to serve your judges three different courses. So you serve them an espresso course, which is just espresso. You serve them a milk course, which can include dairy milk or an alternative milk, but it’s just a milk and just an espresso. And then you have the signature beverage, which is essentially your showcase. It can be whatever you want it to be. And while you are serving the judges these drinks, you are talking about all your ingredients, you are giving them all the details, and you are also describing the sensory experience that the judges will have. There are really deep score sheets, very technical, but a bulk of the points that you can get are from describing your tasting notes and your texture calls, and the judges then, when they taste the drinks, are scoring you on how accurately you were able to describe the experience that they’re having. So that’s barista champs in a nutshell.

Kirk Bachmann: And you’re so humble. You make it, you know, seem so easy in a way, but I see it from, you know, a student might be able to execute from seeing, from reading, from practicing, but it’s very, very difficult to combine the cognitive piece of it, right? That’s one of the things that we try to help students understand, where their food comes from, how that food ties into the technique that they’re working on. I just want our audience to know that what you just described is not easy. And you know, another comment, Morgan, that I wanted to make is that everything you’re mentioning here connects so deeply to what I hope and we try to teach at Escoffier, and that is that concept that technical mastery and genuine hospitality are two sides of the same coin, right?

Morgan Eckroth: Yep, fully right there with you.

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah, it’s genuine, unreasonable hospitality, as Will says, right?

Morgan Eckroth: Yes.

Kirk Bachmann: So your approach, and just our time together, is so clearly grounded in just warmth and genuine hospitality, and I greatly appreciate it. When you compete at the highest level, where I imagine all of that hospitality, all of that technique has to be matched at some level with some intentional precision. Right, that’s what the judges are probably looking for. You mentioned something about describing the sensory experience that the judges are having. In many ways, it’s the sensory experience, as I understand it, that you want the judge to have. Right?

Morgan Eckroth: Also that, exactly.

Kirk Bachmann: That’s brilliant.

Morgan Eckroth: The psychological game of convincing them that they’re going to have the experience you want them to have.

Kirk Bachmann: Wow, wow! How do you keep warmth at the center of all of that? Because I imagine that’s a part of it, right?

Morgan Eckroth: Yeah.

Kirk Bachmann: You want them to like you.

Morgan Eckroth: Definitely. You know, it’s interesting because the Barista Championships, at least, you know, within this exact format, there are plenty of coffee competitions out there that, you know, have different formats, you know, different prioritizations off the score sheets. But within this competition, it is very much a performance. You have a script. You have, yes. You have read it 1,000 times. Maybe you’ve even like written your blocking, you know, into your script, and I’m someone who really likes to rehearse. I find it really, really useful to just like get as many reps in as possible, and, you know, something that definitely happens, and I always have to be super cognizant of every competition season, is once you’ve said those words so many times, like they start to lose their meaning, you know. You lose some of that warmth, or you just kind of become a robot on stage. And yes, you’re doing everything correct. You’re saying all the things, but it just becomes truly just a performance rather than being service. And so I think one of the things I always just try to like keep in mind when I am definitely on stage, but also practicing, is like outside of the competition, outside of the rule sheets, all of that, my job on stage is to be like the best barista I can be, and my judges are my customers. And so, reminding myself that they’re just people on the other side of the table that are super excited to drink really delicious coffee, and yes, I have to say a bunch of things to them, and yes, they need to like score and like write down a bunch of things. But just trying to like reengage into that like customer-barista relationship as much as possible, even though it’s still a performance.

Kirk Bachmann: Do you believe, just an observation, do you believe that it’s similar in the wine world, where a sommelier is trying to get to the next level, and they have to talk a little bit about the terroir, the soil, the conditions? Does it get that deep also with coffee?

Morgan Eckroth: It definitely does. I think in a lot of ways, the wine industry is so much older than the coffee industry. So I think we’re always like chasing wine a little bit, you know. Wine is like a north star of like where coffee like can go, or like maybe where it could go. So very much so. I think, you know, especially barista championships and like sommelier work, there is a lot of crossover about how we talk about.

Kirk Bachmann: I imagine, and warmth and hospitality. Absolutely, it was amazing. I took the family to a Spanish restaurant that’s relatively new in Boulder the other day, and it’s a husband and wife team. They’re absolutely amazing, and the sommelier, who I’ve known for years, he’s worked at a lot of cool spots in Boulder, and he’s there now, and he’s really articulate and knowledgeable about Spanish wine, but he’d never been to Spain. I mean, it’s on the bucket list, right? But imagine the work that it takes to be that versed in a product that you’re selling and pouring, and with warmth and hospitality, with the absence of actually visiting.

Morgan Eckroth: It’s all happening.

Kirk Bachmann: Where the wine is grown. It’s all you.

Morgan Eckroth: You have to be passionate about it.

What’s Next & The Ultimate Dish

Kirk Bachmann: Oh my gosh! Yeah, and curious, right? We have time for two more questions. They’re both kind of tough. What, Morgan, what still feels unfinished? It’s an unfair question, but

Morgan Eckroth: Oh wow! Oh, that’s a big question.

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah, yeah. It’s how I roll.

Morgan Eckroth: What still feels unfinished? That’s a really, weirdly enough, it’s been something I have been thinking about a lot lately, especially as this like book project kind of comes to fruition. And this has been the thing that I’ve been doing for like the last couple years, of getting like this ready. And now that it’s almost out there, there’s definitely a sense of like, what’s next? What’s the next project? What happens? And I think for me, the thing that feels unfinished, but the thing also that I want to like pursue in the next stage, is like, I always say that I make coffee on the internet and like for the internet, and I absolutely love doing that. But I think the next stage is figuring out how to like reincorporate like actual service back into what I do in my day to day. You know, if I could just be a barista and make coffee for people in person, like all day long, that would be my choice. Like that’s what I love doing, and that’s kind of the reason for all of this. And so, figuring out how to bring that down in addition to everything I do currently is…

Kirk Bachmann: That’s super. That’s so genuine. That’s actually very sweet, and kind of a hybrid sort of approach, right? You know, at Escoffier, it’s similar. Our online students spend their entire program online, but they then complete what we call an externship in the industry. That’s their bridge to a career out there, and we think it’s really important, that connection with their customer and their coworkers and things like that. That’s a really good answer. Hey, Morgan, the name of our show. And by the way, what I thought you were going to say about unfinished was being a guest lecturer at Escoffier. So we’ll talk about that later.

Morgan Eckroth: We’ll talk about that.

Kirk Bachmann: We will do that. We will do that. The toughest question of all can be the most fun question, if you will. The name of the show is the Ultimate Dish, and I typically ask our guests to just tell us, in their minds, what is the ultimate dish, and that could be a memory, that could be a specific dish, but in your case, I’m kind of hoping it’s a beverage.

Morgan Eckroth: That’s a really hard one. I’m going to go a little bit nebulous with this response. I think the ultimate coffee or ultimate drink, whatever it may be, is one that is shared amongst friends. I think I’ve had a lot of incredible coffee in my time. I could probably like pull up some names if like I really wanted to, but like really the ones that like stick with you are the ones where you’re just like sharing with friends and having a conversation, and it doesn’t even matter what’s in the cup anymore.

Kirk Bachmann: Oh, I was gonna make it even harder and say give me an example of what would be in the cup, but it doesn’t matter.

Morgan Eckroth: The thing that prompted that answer is I have this memory of being, I was in Brazil a couple years ago on a trip, a coffee trip with a bunch of other competitors and like barista champions, and so I’m sitting there at the table with, like, there’s like the best in the world, and I’m just humbled to be there and nervous, and we’re kind of all starting to become friends. And we had a bunch of coffee, and none of it was labeled. We didn’t know what we were brewing. We didn’t have all the equipment we needed, so like some people weren’t using scales. Like it was a total mess compared to like how we would all choose to brew, but like it was this beautiful moment of just passing around carafes full of coffee. We didn’t know what was in it. No one had really like cared too much, but it was just like so wonderful. And like one of my favorite moments of ever drinking coffee was that table.

Kirk Bachmann: No, I think that is a perfect answer, to be honest. We’ve had different answers over the years, but the ones that always strike me the most are the ones that come back to family or friends or being around the table, whether you’re sharing a cup or a plate or even, you know, a dessert. But great answer. Goes into the archives. Morgan, this has been absolutely delightful. Sorry for my high level of engagement and excitement, but we have so many connections to the Great Northwest. I absolutely, absolutely love it. I will be in touch to see what we can do to get you in front of students. I think they would be so, so awestruck and just interested in what you have to say from an entrepreneurial perspective.

Morgan Eckroth: It’s been such a pleasure to be here. This was truly such a wonderful way to start the morning.

Kirk Bachmann: A great way to start the morning. And what’s going to be in the cup next?

Morgan Eckroth: Oh gosh, I’m a one-cup-of-coffee-a-day type of person.

Kirk Bachmann: Are you okay?

Morgan Eckroth: It’s probably a chai latte going in here next.

Kirk Bachmann: Okay, all right. I like it. I like it. I’m not doing chai, but I will have another latte. I’ll tell you that. Thank you for listening to the Ultimate Dish podcast, brought to you by Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts. Visit escoffier.edu/podcast to find any materials mentioned during the podcast, including notes, links, and other resources. And if you can, please leave us a rating on Apple or Spotify and subscribe to support our show. This helps us reach more aspiring individuals ready to take the next step toward their dream careers. Thanks for listening.