Food Photographer Matt Armendariz: Why the Best Creative Careers Aren’t Planned

TRANSCRIPT

Kirk Bachmann: Hello, everyone. My name is Kirk Bachmann, and welcome back to The Ultimate Dish. You can tell by my voice I am pumped up today. Today’s guest is someone I’ve been so eager to introduce to our listeners. He is one of the culinary world’s leading visual storytellers — keyword: storytellers. Love that word. Please welcome food photographer, creative director, author, and the founder of Matt Armendariz Studios. Matt Armendariz. If you’ve ever picked up a cookbook and felt your mouth water before you read even a single word, there’s a good chance you’ve experienced Matt’s work without knowing his name. For more than two decades, Matt has been one of the most sought-after food photographers in the business — the creative force behind cookbooks and campaigns for an astonishing range of chefs, authors, celebrities, and brands, from Eva Longoria, Demi Lovato, Tabitha Brown, and Tia Mowry, to Coca-Cola, Target, Martha Stewart, and even the Food Network. But Matt’s path into this world is a beautiful one. He didn’t start behind the camera at all. He spent time early in his career as a graphic designer and art director in the food industry, including a stint with Whole Foods Market. All along the way, in 2005 he started a little blog called Matt Bites — love that — sharing his personal take on food and the behind-the-scenes moments of his work. That blog would go on to be named one of the top food blogs in the world. Then in 2010, as he tells it, he traded his cubicle for a studio. Something clicked — quite literally — and when he realized that color, space, proportion, storytelling, and food could all come together in a single frame, he never looked back. He has since authored his own books, including On a Stick and Focus on Food Photography for Bloggers, taught workshops around the world, and built an extraordinary brand alongside his partner and frequent collaborator, food stylist Adam Pearson. Matt, I’m exhausted, but welcome to The Ultimate Dish. How are you doing?

Matt Armendariz: I’m doing great. I could not be more excited to be here and to chat with you. Thank you so much for having me.

From Austin to the Lens

Kirk Bachmann: I love it. I love it. And I love the studio vibe — we’ve got the exposed brick, and I know your puppy Winnie’s gonna cruise by. I say ‘puppy’ and I use that term very, very loosely. All horse.

Kirk Bachmann: You’re on the West Coast, right?

Matt Armendariz: Correct. Yes. Yeah.

Kirk Bachmann: And so how’s the weather? Last year at this time there were fires. Everything cool? Everything open?

Matt Armendariz: No, we’re not. Not at all. We have extreme weather right now. We have hurricanes coming up, so it’s just been wet and humid. In fact, the city I’m in, Long Beach, California, was the most humid city in the nation a couple of days ago, and this is not normal for California. So no, it’s not.

Kirk Bachmann: Well, be safe. We think about you. And you know, Colorado — I’m sitting in Colorado — has been terribly hot. But more than anything, we didn’t have a lot of snow last year either. So the drought continues, right? We’re trying to be very — especially in Boulder — very cognizant of that. We don’t see a bunch of sprinklers just wasting water out there in the backyard. So yeah, it’s an interesting time. Praying for snow this year, for a lot of reasons. But we’re going to dive into you. I’ve tried to curb my enthusiasm, and people will know in a minute why. I have to give credit where credit is due, because the reason we made this happen is a fun one. My wife Gretchen went to an event of Gaby Dalkin’s in California. She met you, and she came back with exactly one instruction for me: ‘You need to get Matt on the podcast immediately.’ And when someone makes an impression like that in a room full of amazing people, there’s usually a story behind it. So I’m going to ask you to share the story. But before you do, I want to remind our listeners that it was Gretchen also who encouraged me to give Gaby a shout out a couple of years ago, and she was so gracious to spend some time with us. We found a whole new space of social media influencers, and it’s been a ton of fun. And by the way, Matt, before you go and tell me all about that event — it is Gretchen’s birthday today, so you’ve got to give her a little birthday wish.

Matt Armendariz: Happy birthday, Gretchen! I hope you are somewhere enjoying a delicious cake right now.

Kirk Bachmann: Absolutely. It’s probably going to be cheesecake — very dense — but even better. She’ll love that. Thank you so much. So tell us about that event specifically, and what your role was supporting Gaby and all of that.

Matt Armendariz: Well, by default — Gaby is the bestie, and I’m basically her creative director. She’s kind of moved into this Gaby retreat thing that she does. You can go and have dinner with her, and it’s just a wonderful way to get offline and connect with each other — hence getting to meet Gretchen. There are different hotels, different resorts, there’s food and there’s wine. And I have been recruited — I usually show up and teach a Zumba class, because when I’m not in the studio, I teach dance fitness classes. So we always do that. It’s fun to get your body moving a little bit. But it’s just really a lovely weekend. That’s what it’s all about.

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah. Gretchen took a friend of hers, Barb — also here from Boulder — and that was it. It was great food and all of that, but just really relaxing and getting to meet a lot of people. So we need to do more of that. I certainly appreciate it.

The Backdoor In

Kirk Bachmann: Let’s go back to the beginning. Finding the frame — the story of the graphic designer to the studio. Love the story. Your path, Matt, is one that our students really need to hear. You didn’t come up through a traditional culinary or even photography track at all. You said you came into photography through an accidental back door — I love that. So you spent your early career as a graphic designer and art director, even working at Whole Foods. What was it about the food world that kept pulling you in, even before the camera?

Matt Armendariz: Well, food’s always been important. Growing up in a large Mexican American household, there’s just such a rich culinary history, a culture, and so that’s always been the center of our home. I’ve always loved to eat, always loved cooking, cooked with my grandmother, my mom. Food always had a very special place to me, just like a lot of us. And this was in Austin, Texas, when Whole Foods was — way before they expanded — and just everybody got a job there. It was just a thing you did. If you’re in college, you got a job at Whole Foods. And the first few weeks, I was like, ‘Wow, I love this!’ Because there was a story behind the food, and they were sharing it. It wasn’t some no-name grocery store. It was: this is where your cheese came from, this is the farm where this honey is from, this is where the cattle is raised. All these things that really put a face to food — to really good food — and that just kind of opened doors for me. I just kind of worked the ranks of Whole Foods. I’m self-taught as a designer, so eventually they trusted me — I don’t know why — and I became creative director, but always around food, and I loved it. The whole backdoor thing was: I was hiring food photographers and being on set, and I was like, you know what, this is much more fun than sitting behind a computer, because you get to work with a team of people, you get to see the food stylists — that was a whole new world to me. So yeah, it just kept going, and I found something that I really — I loved everything I’ve done, but being a photographer was just so exciting and thrilling for me.

Kirk Bachmann: I love that, and the whole story of Austin and the vibe that Whole Foods has there — because we have a school there. We see that, we’ve experienced it. I have to say, a few people have told me that outside of the classic Whole Foods in Austin, the one we have here in Boulder — the one smack dab in the middle of Boulder — is their second largest in terms of people coming in and out of the door. A lot of Lululemon and a lot of very small parking spots.

Matt Armendariz: It’s a lifestyle.

Kirk Bachmann: It is. And guess who’s the leader of the pack there? That would be my wife, Gretchen. She’s like, ‘Hey honey, you know Whole Foods can deliver to the house too, right?’ And she’s like, ‘Oh no, I’m going.’

Matt Armendariz: That’s the social outing. Yeah, of course.

The Pivot

Kirk Bachmann: I love it. I love it. So then 2010 shows up — right? — a very pivotal moment for you. You’ve described it beautifully: color, space, proportion, storytelling, and food all came together, and you realized it was all you ever wanted to do, and you traded your cubicle for the studio. What gave you the courage to make that leap, Matt? Because a lot of our students fear leaving something that’s very stable and real and taking a chance. Most successful people — many successful people we’ve had on the show — have done a similar thing. They’ve ripped the bandage off and they’ve just gone all in. So tell us about that. Was there fear?

Matt Armendariz: Oh yeah, totally. And I should clarify though — instead of me, like, walking toward my future, I was kind of pushed out. The marketing department was being dissolved. So I was missing a lot of my day job to take photography gigs because of the blog I had started, and they were like, ‘Oh, he can photograph this.’ So it was kind of — I got called into the office. They’re like, ‘Okay, we’ve eliminated your position.’ And you panic and you freak out, and you realize: if this photography thing is meant to be, I’ve got to do it. I have no choice. I have to do it. So it’s never comfortable, and the fear is always there. I mean, that doesn’t go away just because you’re successful at something you do. And so I told myself in 2010: if this is what I want to do, I’ve got to make it work. There’s nothing else. It has to work. And I’d been working for 16 years. Sometimes you just need that motivation. You know you can do it, and they probably did you a little bit of a favor.

Kirk Bachmann: I think so. I totally think so. Yeah, around that time you also started Matt Bites — I think 2005 — and you’ve credited that blog, which is a story many people tell, with a lot of doors opening. How did it simply occur that sharing your work and your voice would end up shaping your entire career?

Matt Armendariz: Coming from marketing and having a marketing background — within Whole Foods, you’re paid to tell somebody else’s story, and it’s wonderful. It’s wonderful when you believe in that story. I can’t imagine how uncomfortable it is if you hate the company and you’ve got to make it sound all great. But food blogging — this was 2004 — it was brand new, and I was like, you know what? I cleared it with my boss at the time. I was just like, ‘Can I share these extra photos, or this story from this cheesemaker, or just a recipe I’m trying?’ And he’s like, ‘You can do whatever you want. I don’t know what a food blog is.’ Because it was so early. And so it just made me realize: wait a minute, I have something inside of me — my voice, my viewpoint on something — that’s worth something. So I kind of just leaned into the blog. It was like a perfect storm of my writing, my photography, humor, that kind of thing. It was really just an outlet for me. But you start to realize, wow, I have some kind of worth in this area. People want to either be a part of it or bring me onto something, and that just really opened a lot of doors for me.

A Designer’s Eye

Kirk Bachmann: You know, it’s such an important lesson, and we’ll highlight it for our students — that the skills from a so-called detour rarely go to waste. Your design and art direction background didn’t disappear when you picked up the camera. How does that designer’s eye still show up in the photographs you make today?

Matt Armendariz: That’s a really good question, and I’ve noticed this is a skill set not just among designers and photographers, but painters, sculptors. It’s perhaps about proportion and where the eye sees things, and also understanding what’s the most important thing you want to show. And especially in recipe photography, it works the other way — there are things you don’t want to show, so you make them smaller in the frame. It’s just really about learning balance and proportion and color, and then that becomes your vocabulary, no matter what you’re making.

Kirk Bachmann: You’re so humble, you make it seem like you just do this, that, and the other. And like I told you before the show, we never want to downplay the amount of work and stress and long hours. Our students need to understand that too. There’s so much that we don’t see behind the scenes, and I super, super appreciate that. Before we get into the actual work, I did want to run a question by you that’s not on the script — so apologies to my Noel for this — but it’s really important to me. Cooks and chefs are trained to think a lot about flavor, aroma, texture, temperature. But you have to make someone want to eat something using only their eyes, which is in many ways beautiful, right? What makes food visually tempting and delicious? What do you see that many of us — even well-trained chefs — might miss?

Matt Armendariz: That’s a very good question. I kind of have to back up into it, because I practice a skill where every single person I meet is an expert. Let me give you an example. If I was photographing a $250,000 one-of-six vehicle — I’m selling a fantasy. Not everybody has that personal relationship with that car. But when we’re on set, everybody eats. Everybody knows what they like, everybody knows what they don’t like, everybody knows how it should taste. So right there, it’s almost always a little more challenging for the type of photography I do, because everyone has an input — and they should, because we all eat. So I have to lean into the story of: what’s going to make this dish look the best possible? Is it through propping, because it’s kind of a plain image but a recipe that everybody loves? Or do I need to tell the story of a dish that’s so esoteric from a small part of the world? All these things go into it. And then it also helps to know how to cook. You know the subject matter you’re photographing. You know that steak is going to oxidize as it sits there for 20 minutes, or what something looks like when it’s just been fired, as opposed to congealing. Over the years I’ve met food photographers who are like, ‘Oh, it’s just something I do. I don’t really like food or I don’t cook,’ and I’m just like, oh, you need to find another job.

Kirk Bachmann: There’s got to be that passion there. You just sparked some real interesting thoughts in my mind. As I mentioned at the beginning of the show, we have a lot of students who go to school with us online. One of the first questions we got years ago when we started was: who tastes the food? So in the online world, we spend a lot of time helping students — through many, many different tools — understand and express themselves in terms of what they’ve done. You mentioned the steak, right? Neither of us have ever gone to a restaurant and received the steak delivered to us with a bite taken out of it by the chef to make sure it was okay. It was about timing and the visual appearance. Does it have the right sort of caramelization? Does it have the right sort of look?

Matt Armendariz: Right.

Kirk Bachmann: And I love that whole ‘you eat with your eyes.’ It sounds like a cliché, but you really, really do.

Matt Armendariz: You do. You do. And that’s the way our online instructors communicate daily with our students. They don’t necessarily always prescribe the answer — they ask the student to tell them. So: tell me about the grill marks on your chicken breast, and why one side is kind of dark and the other is kind of light, and what’s going to happen when you cut into that chicken breast? So the students are learning even more, in a weird kind of way, than they might be if we were standing right in front of them.

Kirk Bachmann: Absolutely. I think it’s a perfect segue to the craft. I love that word. And cookbook photography — we actually have an online entrepreneurship program at Escoffier that students can take, and it includes food photography. One day I’d love to run that by you to make sure we’re clicking on all cylinders. But this is really the actual work, because many of our students — I’m just going to tell you, Matt — they dream about what you’re doing, right? A cookbook is not just a stack of recipes; it’s a visual story. And you’ve helped so many tell these stories. I didn’t even know about Eva Longoria — I watched one of her movies last night. Love her, love her. Demi Lovato, Tabitha Brown, Gaby Dalkin, and so many more. Walk us through, if you could, what actually happens on a cookbook shoot when an author comes to you with their book, or their book idea, or their team. Where do you even begin?

Matt Armendariz: That’s a really good question. You take a couple of steps back and understand the author and where they came from. Is it a celebrity who’s so excited because they’ve rekindled their love of food, or they’re cooking again? There are those moments. There are also authors who were chefs, and so they know what they’re doing inside and out. Then you have people like Eva Longoria, who cooks — she cooked us lunch. She cooks all the time. She’s the sweetest, most loving human being on the planet, and we’re both from the same part of Texas. So it all depends on the author. And then a lot of times — this is an interesting thing — a lot of those authors work with co-authors or ghostwriters, even. And that’s the person testing the recipe, writing the recipe, kind of getting it into a place where the celebrity can just sign off or give their input on it, which is a total job in itself. And then you go into production and you discuss what it wants to look like, and is there anything we want to cover that’s important to the author? Sometimes a publisher is like, ‘This is hitting this time of year and we want it to look this certain way,’ or ‘We already have titles that look like this color palette, so let’s do this a little different.’ And then when I come in on a project, it’s not just to take the photos — it’s to go with Adam and the manuscript, which we get very early, and be like, okay, this will photograph beautifully, there’s more of a story here, let’s put six sauce recipes on one page for the sake of space. But then also, I have the insight because — cookbooks — there was one year, I think it was two years ago, where every book I photographed had shakshuka in it. Like, every book. And I love it. But I saw it for the sixth time and I was like, ‘You know what? We don’t really need to spend a lot of time on this, because by the time your book comes out, people will have shakshuka fatigue.’ Although I don’t think that’s possible, because it’s like the best breakfast. Those kind of moments where I have to see the big picture and advise. And I’m at a point in my career now where publishers are like, ‘Matt’s going to be perfect for this book — we’ll put this author with Matt.’ And it’s been such a fun project. Cookbooks are just wonderful.

Being in Service

Kirk Bachmann: That’s such a nice compliment — that you’ve worked really hard to get to a place where ‘Matt’s the person that’s going to bring this together.’ I don’t want to put any NDAs at risk, so you don’t have to say any names. But are there some you’ve worked with who kind of put their foot down? Like, ‘I want to be a little bit more involved and I’m going to override your sort of direction.’ Is that tough sometimes, if it even happens?

Matt Armendariz: Well, this is something I hope we get into — talking about being a service industry, because that’s what we all are. No, I’m gonna let them. If an author says, ‘This is how I’m seeing it, this is how I want it,’ I have to be very diplomatic. I’ll say, ‘Okay, let’s try it that way. If it works and the team all responds, or the publisher likes it, we’ll go that way.’ Or I’m going to say, ‘That’s just not the best way to do it,’ and I do have to kind of put my foot down. At the end of the day, I am the photographer and it’s my project, and I know how to make a good photo. But there are also good reasons why somebody would put their foot down. It could be a memory, it could be passion.

Kirk Bachmann: I always like to say: singers sing and dancers dance. You guys stay over there. But with that as a background — has there ever been this one dish, or this one shoot — and I’m sure there are many — but I just love that idea of you being able to go home at the end of the day and say, ‘Wow, we really got something special here.’ That still-high — like when you jump out of an airplane, or you’re on a bike going downhill in the Pyrenees — that kind of photographer’s high. Like, ‘Wow, this was beyond. This was really beautiful.’

Matt Armendariz: Not for me, no. Maybe in the past. But for me, that satisfaction is: was there a problem, and did I solve it the best that I could? That’s when I’m like, ‘Oh, okay. I did good,’ and I pat myself on the back. It’s just about problem solving — whether the problem was the team getting along, whether the problem was the author, whether the problem was the client, whether the problem was me. Did I solve it the best way possible so that everyone succeeds? That’s where I get my satisfaction.

Kirk Bachmann: Spoken like a true leader. I love that, and it’s a perfect segue into something you’ve said that really stuck with me: ‘I’m only as good as my team.’ If I could just say before I go on — how much I love that statement. Great leaders walk alongside their team, not behind, not in front. They walk alongside. And so you point, Matt, to the power of a talented author, good photography, strong editing, graphic design — all working together. So much of your best work, it seems like all great leaders, is a true partnership — especially with your partner Adam, a food stylist, right? So how did a photographer and a stylist actually work together to make the food look that good? And here’s the secret — you don’t have to share if you don’t want to. Is it all real? Is it all edible? Or is it sometimes kind of staged, like, ‘Let’s put a little piece of cardboard right here so the potatoes have lift’? I’ve always been fascinated by that.

Matt Armendariz: So it is all real. It’s all real. That doesn’t mean you’re gonna want to eat it. Sometimes pieces of cardboard — or an old Amazon box — get cut in little circles to stick under a hamburger bun so it stays up. Still real food, but with some things you don’t want to eat. I can tell you what it’s not: it’s not fake, it’s not motor oil, it’s not shaving cream — all these things people have thought about for the longest time. I’ve been doing this for 20-something years and I’ve never used motor oil for syrup. You just use syrup. People love that myth — every couple of years it’ll go viral. ‘The things they do on food shoots!’ And everybody’s like, ‘That’s just so dishonest. I’ll never eat it.’ And I was just like, ‘That’s not what we do.’ But anyway. First of all, it’s all real, and we all eat it. If it’s a six-day shoot and all the seafood was purchased on day one and you’re getting around to that fish recipe on day seven, I’m not going to eat it. But for the most part, it’s all that. As far as working with a food stylist — you’re both bringing a huge amount of culinary experience together, so you talk it out. ‘Are you feeling very passionate about this? Because if not, I can take the lead.’ Vice versa: ‘Do you want to do your thing? How much input do you need from me? Do you need me to prelight it? Do you need to audition the plates?’ It’s just a lot of discussion so that you can both together make the best food image.

Real Food, Real Stories

Kirk Bachmann: I’m fascinated by the whole coming together and solving problems. How do you translate someone else’s identity — perhaps their culture, their family, their spirit — Eva is a great example — into the images, and still have them feel authentically theirs versus yours or someone else’s? Is that a challenge at times?

Matt Armendariz: It is a challenge, and I think that’s coming from creative direction and my background. I know when to let the food tell the story. I know when the props tell the story. I know when the other person tells the story. And also, I know when there’s no story — which happens a lot. Like, ‘Oh, so-and-so wrote a protein cookbook.’ That’s all it is. There’s nothing personal. It’s just protein, protein, protein, and that’s fine. You have to know when the absence of a story doesn’t make it bad — you just have to know how to get that in a frame. And I think that’s when everything I’ve done — writing, designing, dancing — all comes together. You know how things work together.

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah. A perfect example — Gaby’s book is often on our dining room table. What’s kind of cool is that our copy gets dirty — it’s on the counter, it’s open. Gretchen has one family that she cooks for, and they love her, and she loves them, and they were introduced to Gaby’s recipes through Gretchen. So there’s something really special. I also have other books that I wouldn’t dare — I put white gloves on and turn the pages like, ‘Don’t you dare put this in the kitchen.’ I think it’s nice to strike a balance, to really turn those pages and try to make those recipes work. For a culinary student who loves the visual, creative side of the business — this could really feel like a viable career path, right? Again, tons and tons of work behind the scenes. What skills — and I won’t hold you to it, Matt — would you tell a student today to start really focusing on building right now, if they want to go into food media, styling, photography, or all of the above?

Matt Armendariz: I would say, first of all, there are so many paths out there and they are all viable, and you can do it. If I did it, you can do it. But then I’d also say — and I’m going to sound really old — especially with the younger generation, everybody wants to skip ahead. And also we all have cameras now because they’re all on our phones. It goes back to something I said earlier: this is a service industry, and you really have to have people skills for any kind of longevity. What I do is as basic as: treat people with respect, be curious, remain engaged, put the phone down, go out and do what we did 50 years ago when we didn’t have smartphones. Get out and travel and see things, eat amazing food, eat bad food so you know what you don’t like — all those things. Just really fill your cup first, so that you have the energy and the curiosity to go and do what you need to do to get where you want.

Building the Brand

Kirk Bachmann: That’s really good advice. That’s going to run right into a little bit more chat around your business and the future of food media. You’ve built Matt Armendariz Studios into a genuine brand, and you’ve authored your own books on top of it all. You’ve been very candid that you’re not a salesperson — you let your work speak for you, and I love that. In this noisy, social media-driven industry — and I’m a big fan, by the way; I am obsessed with social media — how have you stayed true to whatever your vision or approach has been as you build your business and your brand? I imagine you get tempted at times to do some things that maybe you shouldn’t, just from a loudness perspective.

Matt Armendariz: Yeah, no, that’s true. I have to keep coming back to: I have to treat everyone the way I want to be treated, and I have to practice kindness for myself and then for others. And that has never, ever done me wrong. Ever. I’ve never regretted — I’ve done a lot of things I regret. I’ve said things, I’ve taken jobs I kind of regret because they didn’t work out that well. But the one thing I never regret is treating others with kindness and respect. So that is my north star in everything I do. And it’s been enough, you know — the work still comes. Now, granted, I’m active on social media too — I was one of the first food bloggers, all that stuff. But that was a way to express myself. That’s not what kept me going. What keeps me going is getting out there, spending time with friends, going dancing, going to a gallery — all the things. It’s funny, because now we say ‘touch grass,’ and all the touch-grass things are what actually work. So yeah, go out there and touch grass.

Kirk Bachmann: Touch grass. I love that. So in many ways, you’ve had a front-row seat to what I’d refer to as an enormous shift. When you started, food photography lived in glossy magazines and cookbooks. Then blogs came along — your blog came along — then Instagram, and now everyone with a phone, in many ways, is an influencer, a photographer, a content creator.

Matt Armendariz: Content creator — there you go. I like to call myself a content creator, by the way.

Kirk Bachmann: Have you seen — or maybe can you speak to — the change in this craft over the last 20 years? How do we keep our work fresh through all of it?

Matt Armendariz: I think we keep our work fresh by focusing on the work, and not the medium. You know, some people only shot magazines, and then publishing went away. Then some people moved to social, put all their eggs in one basket, and then Tumblr went away. All these things are constantly changing. But what’s not changing is the skill set, the service of what we do, the relationships. If you just take a bigger picture and keep that in mind — there’s going to be something else, and something else that you thought was great is going to go away. It’s always going to change. So I just encourage others, and I tell myself this a lot: it’s really about the work, and it’s not about where the work is. Just do your best.

The Future of Culinary Storytelling

Kirk Bachmann: At Escoffier, we’re doing a lot of very exciting work leveraging AI — particularly in the student assessment space, to help our instructors. And it’s funny when I sit with my kids and I’m like, ‘Oh, look at this cool thing on social media,’ and my son’s always like, ‘That’s AI, Dad.’ Yeah, it’s AI. And I’m like, so where are we going with this concept of AI-generated imagery in social media? Is there a place for it? How do you feel about it?

Matt Armendariz: You know, we’ve got a couple years of it now. Every day it’s different. We’re not at a place — specifically for me — where AI food imagery looks good. It might be the last frontier where it looks good, but it will eventually look good. Have I played around with it? Yes. Have I used it in my work? No, but that could change. And I also think of it this way: you can change the table in a photo I took, but you could have done that with Photoshop. So we’ve been manipulating images with pixels for the longest time. The difference is that these images are trained on existing work that photographers have done. I’m not precious about anything I do — I’m an open book — so that kind of makes me feel a little different about it. I’m just kind of waiting to see what happens. People are still purchasing photography. People are still taking pictures of food. It’s a very good question. It’s a discussion I have all the time with other photographers, and some are absolutely anti, and some are like, ‘It’s fine.’ It remains to be seen.

Kirk Bachmann: You know, it’s a balance. For our online content — even though we use AI for some of the functioning and things like that — we’re still very committed to the craft. We have a studio in downtown Chicago, a whole graphic design team, instructional design team, a film team. We want our chefs to come into the studio and actually do it right and talk about it. It feels more authentic. And we’re using some of the AI on the assessment side of things.

Matt Armendariz: Yeah, which seems to work.

Kirk Bachmann: Matt, when you look at food media and — my favorite part of our conversation — culinary storytelling, where are they heading next? What excites you the most? And is there some advice you’d give to the next generation of storytellers?

Matt Armendariz: I think one of the great things is that it has democratized everything. You’ve had these old-guard, legacy media people who now have to compete with a young, fresher voice, and I’m all for that. I’m completely for that. I’m not trying to minimize somebody’s 30 years of experience, but there was a little gatekeeping — a lot of gatekeeping — in the way that things used to be done. And now, if you’ve got a voice, you can share it. I think that’s the most exciting thing about how things have changed.

Kirk Bachmann: What was your other question? I think it was more — I’m always thinking of our students. If they’re the next generation of storytellers, is there that one piece of advice that you think they should stick with? A little different than a career, but more about storytelling specifically.

Matt Armendariz: Just keep sharing your story. And a lot of times, there are people who are like, ‘That’s not me — I’m not into it for that. I just want to cook, or I just want to take a picture.’ And that’s fine. There’s a place for you. But if you are a creative person and you need to share, you need to create — just keep creating and sharing your story, because it will resonate. It only takes one person to connect with. And tell you how you got to where you are. Share that story.

Kirk Bachmann: You know what’s so great about chatting with you — I just knew this was going to happen. Talking to Gretchen, when I think about everything you’re sharing about teamwork and storytelling and doing your best work — honestly, Matt, this could be a book. But it could also be applied to many vocations. You could be a plumber or a carpenter and follow the same sort of guidelines and find success in that medium. That’s what I love about your feedback. Not to get emotional — but I always get emotional about food. Food is incredibly emotional, right? It’s family, it’s culture, it’s memory, it’s even identity. Have you ever been in a situation where you’re photographing a dish or a series of dishes, and you’ve realized that you weren’t really photographing the food anymore — you were photographing someone’s story?

Matt Armendariz: Absolutely. All the time.

Kirk Bachmann: Yeah. I just absolutely love that. What better definition of a great job is there?

Imperfection Is Intentional

Kirk Bachmann: So you’ve spent a career making things look really, really beautiful. Do you think there’s such a thing as food being maybe too perfect in a photograph? What’s the line between creating a beautiful image and — and maybe not?

Matt Armendariz: Right. I mean, yes. In terms of styles, things have changed in the past couple years — a lot of hard light, which is fun, but then a lot of people putting so much in the frame, all these jewel tones and glasses and hands with big jewelry coming in. And that’s just a little too — we’ve pulled away from… I mean, that’s a form of storytelling. It’s like this. And I think you see all of this happening because for many years we were all separated from each other, and it’s the opposite of that pandemic mindset. So what we do is also affected by the world and whatever we’re all going through collectively. But yeah, sometimes we get so far away from the food because that’s the story. Sometimes it’s just the food itself because that’s the story. You have to ask yourself: what are you trying to accomplish with this photo?

Kirk Bachmann: Have you — this is such an unfair question, but it’s going to make me laugh once we watch the recording — have you ever intentionally kind of left the crumbs?

Matt Armendariz: All the time. All the time.

Kirk Bachmann: Really? Really?

Matt Armendariz: We leave mess on the forks. Oh yeah, all the time. In fact, what we’ll do is get our hero image, and then actually on set, get a fork and start eating it. We’ll cut into it, and then I’ll take another bite, and I’ll keep taking pictures, and then we’re like, okay, that’s perfect. It had a sense that a person was there. Sometimes you do need to cut into it so you can see the inside. But yeah, no — I’m all about imperfection. I think it’s what makes things so beautiful.

Kirk Bachmann: What did you think of the Starbucks cup that was left on the Game of Thrones set?

Matt Armendariz: Okay, well, I wanted to laugh about it, but I’m not going to tell you which cookbook has a fly on the salad. It’s — the Gaby’s.

Kirk Bachmann: No.

Matt Armendariz: This is the first time I’m saying this publicly. Okay. So I was mortified. Gaby had — somebody had her cookbook and they were like, ‘It’s in the book. There’s a fly on the salad.’ And I was mortified. I mean, it happens, right? It was an outdoor shot — yes, it was outside — and so things were happening. But there are levels of approval for a cookbook. That fly made it through all the way to the end, and I was like, ‘Gaby, I’m so sorry. Are they gonna reprint it?’ And Gaby’s laughing. She couldn’t be bothered by it. She’s like, ‘This is hilarious. The food’s so delicious, all the flies want to be on it.’ I was like, ‘See, now that’s the way to turn it.’

Kirk Bachmann: That is. It would have been better to be a colorful butterfly or maybe a bumblebee, but okay. Oh my gosh, I don’t know where the time goes, Matt.

Matt Armendariz’s Ultimate Dish

Kirk Bachmann: You know, I was going to ask you about what you actually love to eat, but that segues beautifully into the way we wrap up every one of our episodes. We love to ask our personalities — in their mind, because the name of the show is The Ultimate Dish — what is, in your mind, the ultimate dish?

Matt Armendariz: There’s just too much delicious food out there for me to pick. I mean, there’s just too much. I mean, I have my favorites. If my mom’s making enchiladas, of course that’s going to be my favorite. You know?

Kirk Bachmann: That’s a good answer.

Matt Armendariz: Yeah, I mean, that’s probably it. But I’m also going to want to sit down with a big thing of caviar and potato chips.

Kirk Bachmann: Really? Did you and Gretchen have a talk about that? Because that’s like her thing. All right — caviar and potato chips.

Matt Armendariz: Absolutely. A little crème fraîche on there.

Kirk Bachmann: Oh my gosh! What about blinis? Do you like the caviar on blinis?

Matt Armendariz: I like caviar in anything and everything. Oh my. Yeah.

Kirk Bachmann: But what’s funny about the potato chip piece is that the caviar is going to be a little briny and salty anyway — assuming you’re getting some decent quality — and so are the chips. So I think it’s really about the texture for that particular sort of…

Matt Armendariz: Absolutely — that briny, salty crunch. It’s just, oh, it’s heavenly.

Kirk Bachmann: Can I just tell you how much I’ve enjoyed this. I’ve had a buzz up and down my spine since you got on, and thank you. I know you’re insanely busy. This lineup of wonderful people that you work with, and you took a little bit of time to hang with us. And I promise you, Matt, it won’t be just my family and Gretchen that watch this show. It’ll be thousands of students and friends of Escoffier that are gonna see your beautiful smile. And I did see the dancing — I follow you on social media, of course. The dancing was pretty good. Next time we come together, maybe you give us a dance lesson.

Matt Armendariz: I totally will. I would love that.

Kirk Bachmann: Thank you for listening to The Ultimate Dish podcast, brought to you by Auguste Escoffier School of Culinary Arts. Visit escoffier.edu/podcast to find any materials mentioned during the podcast, including notes, links, and other resources. And if you can, please leave us a rating on Apple or Spotify and subscribe to support our show. This helps us reach more aspiring individuals ready to take the next step toward their dream careers. Thanks for listening.